Learning from Ryan Batcheller's (of BRS) 6-month Cycle

[codee]

Ryan from Bulk Reef Supply has been posting updates on his take-it-slow approach with cycling his new 360 gallon SPS tank. Lots of interesting points in his 6-month update (below), but a couple things I'd love to hear opinions on from more experienced reefers (I'm just getting started myself). If you don't want to watch the 15 min video, here are some points:

• After patiently cycling his dry rock for 4 months (no substrate), as soon as he turned on his lights he tank filled with a "green murk" that he had never seen before. Probably some sort of diatom, he thinks.
• Ryan was running a (fairly massive - 1,200 GPH) UV setup that, he thought, would have kept the diatoms check.
• Ryan posits that even after 4 months of cycling with fish, the biological diversity still hadn't developed in the tank, allowing the diatoms to flourish.
• Ryan turned off the lights and added 2 bottles of Microbacter7 and the problem went away.
• Six months in, there is little to no Coralline algae in the tank.

Questions I have for the more experienced reefers:

• Is it possible to fully cycle a tank with dry rock and no Nitrifying bacteria starter like Microbacter7/Dr. Tim's/etc? Does Ryan's cycle show that a starter is basically required (OR use live rock or seeded material)?
• Was Ryan's "green murk" really fixed by adding Microbacter7, or was it just turning off the PAR 300 lights that fixed it?
• Does UV have any effect on algae (like the diatoms that Ryan had), at all?

Basically, is there another piece to the puzzle here? How would you have cycled this tank if you wanted to use dry rock and no substrate?

Ryan's update is here:

Cycle / Ugly Stage Update | Ups and Downs. 6-month cycle. I learned a lot and there are absolutely some things I would do differently next time. | By BRStv Shorts | Facebook

Ups and Downs. 6-month cycle. I learned a lot and there are absolutely some things I would do differently next time.

fb.watch

 

[Ippyroy]

Ryan from Bulk Reef Supply has been posting updates on his take-it-slow approach with cycling his new 360 gallon SPS tank. Lots of interesting points in his 6-month update (below), but a couple things I'd love to hear opinions on from more experienced reefers (I'm just getting started myself). If you don't want to watch the 15 min video, here are some points:

• After patiently cycling his dry rock for 4 months (no substrate), as soon as he turned on his lights he tank filled with a "green murk" that he had never seen before. Probably some sort of diatom, he thinks.
• Ryan was running a (fairly massive - 1,200 GPH) UV setup that, he thought, would have kept the diatoms check.
• Ryan posits that even after 4 months of cycling with fish, the biological diversity still hadn't developed in the tank, allowing the diatoms to flourish.
• Ryan turned off the lights and added 2 bottles of Microbacter7 and the problem went away.
• Six months in, there is little to no Coralline algae in the tank.

Questions I have for the more experienced reefers:

• Is it possible to fully cycle a tank with dry rock and no Nitrifying bacteria starter like Microbacter7/Dr. Tim's/etc? Does Ryan's cycle show that a starter is basically required (OR use live rock or seeded material)?
• Was Ryan's "green murk" really fixed by adding Microbacter7, or was it just turning off the PAR 300 lights that fixed it?
• Does UV have any effect on algae (like the diatoms that Ryan had), at all?

Basically, is there another piece to the puzzle here? How would you have cycled this tank if you wanted to use dry rock and no substrate?

Ryan's update is here:

Cycle / Ugly Stage Update | Ups and Downs. 6-month cycle. I learned a lot and there are absolutely some things I would do differently next time. | By BRStv Shorts | Facebook

Ups and Downs. 6-month cycle. I learned a lot and there are absolutely some things I would do differently next time.

fb.watch

You do not have to add bacteria in a bottle. You could always do the shrimp method. You could also ghost feed your tank. There are many methods to start the Ammonia Cycle in your tank. Bacteria in a bottle is just faster.
Nobody knows what cleared up the "green murk." I'd recommend in a new tank to dose MB7 and MBClean. The more bacteria strains you can put into your tank the better. I used multiple types of Bottled Bac for my tank while cycling the dry rocks in a Brute Can.
UV lights does not work on algae because algae is not in the water column. It can and does help with bacterial blooms in the water column. Diatoms are nothing. They eat silicates, which are in the sand and on the rocks. They can also be in your water if you are not getting 0 TDS from your RODI. You don't have to do anything for diatoms. I rinsed my dry sand thoroughly and cycled my dry rock in a Brute container for months and did several 100% water changes. My diatom bloom was minimal.

 

[Deep]

Agree completely - not sure why diatoms are considered a problem now. Also Coralline algae like any other algae needs light - so if his lights were switched off then obviously there wouldnt be any.
I dont think there is anything new to learn from his cycling process.

 

[DaddyFish]

I learned a lot about cycling when I took two FOWLR tanks to Reef primarily with a lighting change. It's my opinion that using the "tools" available today, the ugly phase is inevitable. The severity of ugly can be managed or minimized by various preparation steps such as curing rock, bottled bacteria, UV etc. (Again in my opinion) His long-cycle approach did teach us something and primarily served to delay the inevitable, not prevent it.

The resounding moto on this forum is clearly "Nothing good happens quickly in a reef tank". The rapid introduction of 250-350 PAR lighting is a rapid and significant change. Mother Nature will quickly respond with nothing good.

 

[DaneGer21]

Personally, I think his process was a little overboard. Some new people would say screw that to 6mths and probably never start a tank. A “normal” cycle process already takes long enough haha

 

[codee]

(Again in my opinion) His long-cycle approach did teach us something and primarily served to delay the inevitable, not prevent it.

The resounding moto on this forum is clearly "Nothing good happens quickly in a reef tank". The rapid introduction of 250-350 PAR lighting is a rapid and significant change. Mother Nature will quickly respond with nothing good.

Yes, I guess that's one of the things I've learned here. Despite the ultra-slow 6 month cycle, it didn't seem to really matter in the end once you blast it with 300 PAR lighting. To that end, it's hard to justify a super long cycle if you do things correctly in the beginning?

 

[ScottR]

I am a turn-the-lights-on-day-one kind of a person. I’ve cycled countless tanks. The point being, you’re going to end up with diatoms and some algae anyway. Why wait until you’re ready to go live to turn on the lights? Diatoms are actually beneficiary in established tanks but most probably don’t realize it. My current tank is 130 gallons. I started it last summer and let it run with a normal light cycle before slowly moving over livestock from an existing tank. I had an ugly stage that went pretty fast. To this day, I have never had an algae problem. I’ve ran into dinos once or twice (short lived). Cyano currently which is manageable. But my rocks are beautiful.

 

[LegendaryCG]

Microfauna is way more important to reef health than many people seem to realize. Nature didn't happen in a bubble. It's forced through competition. If you don't have any competition expect bad things to happen. Dosing bacteria, phytoplankton, introducing pods and coralline provides a foundational structure to the tank that isn't present when you start with just dry rock. Sure nitrifying bacteria will come naturally, and eventually other stuff hitchhikes it's way in but do you want to wait 3 years for that to occur or just start with the framework?

I'm keeping Acros that are growing well in a 1 month old tank that I brought a couple chunks of rock from a previous tank into - 90% of my rock is brand new. I have significant coralline development occurring already and haven't had much of an ugly phase.

 

[Sarcazian]

You do not have to add bacteria in a bottle. You could always do the shrimp method. You could also ghost feed your tank. There are many methods to start the Ammonia Cycle in your tank. Bacteria in a bottle is just faster.
Nobody knows what cleared up the "green murk." I'd recommend in a new tank to dose MB7 and MBClean. The more bacteria strains you can put into your tank the better. I used multiple types of Bottled Bac for my tank while cycling the dry rocks in a Brute Can.
UV lights does not work on algae because algae is not in the water column. It can and does help with bacterial blooms in the water column. Diatoms are nothing. They eat silicates, which are in the sand and on the rocks. They can also be in your water if you are not getting 0 TDS from your RODI. You don't have to do anything for diatoms. I rinsed my dry sand thoroughly and cycled my dry rock in a Brute container for months and did several 100% water changes. My diatom bloom was minimal.

Are you mixing MB7 and MBClean at the same time - and successfully?

New tank here, I guess established LR (sitting in a brute for 8 years in SW), luckily no diatoms or any sign of algae after almost 6 weeks. It might be around the corner, but I have been dosing MB7 (every 1-3 days), phytoplankton (1-4 days), and Kents PurpleUP (every 2-3 days after 4 weeks).

I thought I heard on one of the videos that BRS mentioned that MB7 and MBClean could not be used concurrently in one of their videos? Although, your guidance may be to dose MB7 at first to get things started and then dose MBClean after the cycle?

I have also seen reports of dosing MB7 and MBClean in alternating weeks.

 

[ScottR]

Microfauna is way more important to reef health than many people seem to realize. Nature didn't happen in a bubble. It's forced through competition. If you don't have any competition expect bad things to happen. Dosing bacteria, phytoplankton, introducing pods and coralline provides a foundational structure to the tank that isn't present when you start with just dry rock. Sure nitrifying bacteria will come naturally, and eventually other stuff hitchhikes it's way in but do you want to wait 3 years for that to occur or just start with the framework?

I'm keeping Acros that are growing well in a 1 month old tank that I brought a couple chunks of rock from a previous tank into - 90% of my rock is brand new. I have significant coralline development occurring already and haven't had much of an ugly phase.

Bacteria is crucial to SPS survival. And it can’t be added from a bottle. Live rock or a well-established system is key. I’ve experimented with this before and attest that a new tank with dry rock is going to be difficult to keep most species of SPS.

 

[Ippyroy]

Are you mixing MB7 and MBClean at the same time - and successfully?

New tank here, I guess established LR (sitting in a brute for 8 years in SW), luckily no diatoms or any sign of algae after almost 6 weeks. It might be around the corner, but I have been dosing MB7 (every 1-3 days), phytoplankton (1-4 days), and Kents PurpleUP (every 2-3 days after 4 weeks).

I thought I heard on one of the videos that BRS mentioned that MB7 and MBClean could not be used concurrently in one of their videos? Although, your guidance may be to dose MB7 at first to get things started and then dose MBClean after the cycle?

I have also seen reports of dosing MB7 and MBClean in alternating weeks.

Either/or IMHO. Personally I am a huge fan of ispf.com. Their live sand is great, you only get about a cups worth. Everything they send can also reproduce in the tank unlike MB products. They give a great product that helps a tank mature that only has dry rock.

 

[Mellotang]

Maybe this could be a lesson learned
For BRS consumers to Not Use their dry rock...

filled with phosphate

takes forever to achieve any sort of biological stability

im Surprised more People don’t realize the more you fail, the more products and fixes you buy.

Do You think BRS cares when your tank is filled with algae because they push dry rock that is
Nothing but problems. Of course not... then you buy new skimmers, new UV, new media’s, new lights, new wave makers, new miracle cures... trying to fix the problem they originally Contributed to.

Strong business mode

 

[codee]

Either/or IMHO. Personally I am a huge fan of ispf.com. Their live sand is great, you only get about a cups worth. Everything they send can also reproduce in the tank unlike MB products. They give a great product that helps a tank mature that only has dry rock.

@Ippyroy I was *just* looking at https://www.ipsf.com/ . There's a lot to choose from here, what do you recommend when starting a new tank that will be FOWLR for the first 6-8 months, then beginner soft corals later in the year?

I'm planning on a no-fish cycle with CaribSea's "Life" Rock. I don't have access to any "live" rock (aside from having it shipped from somewhere).

 

[Mellotang]

IPSF live sand activator Kit is full Of Diversity

 

[codee]

Maybe this could be a lesson learned
For BRS consumers to Not Use their dry rock...

filled with phosphate

takes forever to achieve any sort of biological stability

im Surprised more People don’t realize the more you fail, the more products and fixes you buy.

Do You think BRS cares when your tank is filled with algae because they push dry rock that is
Nothing but problems. Of course not... then you buy new skimmers, new UV, new media’s, new lights, new wave makers, new miracle cures... trying to fix the problem they originally Contributed to.

Strong business mode

@Mellotang Do you include CaribSea's "Life" rock as dry rock? The industry had made the terminology confusing for new reefers. Is there any difference from the "real reef rocks" that are supposedly seeded with dry bacteria? Or is that all hype?

 

[Mellotang]

I Have no Experience with carib sea dry rock
But from what I’ve read about it is sounds like it could be a better alternative.

I’m skeptical about any bacteria that’s beneficial for a saltwater environment lying dormant on dry rock that magically becomes active when wet, But as I stated I’ve never used Carib sea dry rock. I like that it’s composed of aragonite and more calcium based.

the problem with the mined dry rock
Is that it comes from terrestrial mines and there are tons of organics trapped in the rock.


ive never had the success and stability I can achieve with live rock when I use dry rock

 

[LegendaryCG]

@Mellotang Do you include CaribSea's "Life" rock as dry rock? The industry had made the terminology confusing for new reefers. Is there any difference from the "real reef rocks" that are supposedly seeded with dry bacteria? Or is that all hype?

It’s dry rock that is pink, it’s nice dry rock but it’s not living rock. Live rock has pods, sponges, worms, feather dusters, corraline, etc.

 

[Ippyroy]

@Mellotang Do you include CaribSea's "Life" rock as dry rock? The industry had made the terminology confusing for new reefers. Is there any difference from the "real reef rocks" that are supposedly seeded with dry bacteria? Or is that all hype?

Just get the dry marco reef saver. If you are willing to take your time it is very simple to cycle and remove the PO4. Get 2 Brute container. Fill the first with RODI and make saltwater with a cheap salt, IO is perfect. Mix it to around 1.021. Add a pump with PVC in a Tee and endcaps. Drill holes into the cross section. It should be just slightly higher than the water level. Add the rocks to the heated mixed saltwater in the Brute container and add you bottle of nitrifying bacteria of your choice. Ghost feed every 3 - 4 days. Cover the Brute can with a tight fitting piece of plastic. A trash bag works great. Tap the water off of the plastic when ever you think about it. After a month, move all of the rocks over to the second Brute container that is set up the same way with a small pump and PVC Tee. Mix the saltwater up to around 1.023 and cover. Ghost feed once a week and add a bottle of different nitrifying bacteria. Repeat these steps every 2 weeks and increase the salt to 1.026.
Once your tank is set up and has saltwater in it, add the rocks from the Brute container and build your scape inside the tank. The PO4 will leach out and be gone by time you add it to your tank. Using the Brute containers this way will allow you to use less salt and water for the cycle. Keep the rocks in the Brute for at least 4 months. After adding them to the tank, you can add fish when you want. After you add the now live rock to your DT, place your order from ispf.com. You can turn the lights on as soon as you want, preferably after all of your fish are added. I'd also dose MB7 during the time of adding fish.
The time in the Brute can is also time spent cycling. MB7 will reproduce in the tank. It is not the greatest way to add more bacteria, but it does help. By doing 100% water changes pulls most of the PO4 out of the rocks and stops NO3 from building up. The biggest downside to this method is it makes scaping a bit harder. I wouldn't worry about it if you are new. By the time you are ready to upgrade, you will have a better idea of how you want to scape the next tank. Good Luck!

 

[garbled]

Having done a few tanks now, and having done a few different types of rock, I am now of the opinion that dry rock is troublesome for a cycle. I don't think whatever bacterial colonies, or processes that exist in live rock, even boat rock, can become active in dry rock in under a year or two.

My usual method over the years has been 3-6 month cycle with some form of live rock. This always gave me great results. When I say cycle, I mean "cycles", because there are a number that tanks go through. There is the initial ammonia cycle, but then there are a bunch of ugly stages. I feel that in my past, live rock tanks went through all the ugly stages and into full-blown-stable in 6 months.

Dry rock though has been a nightmare. The ugly stages are much further apart. I've seen stages that I've never seen before, nothing but problems. You avoid some hitchikers, it's easier to aquascape, but I just feel like its way less stable for a longer time. I'm not saying it won't get stable, just that the cycle stage is more like 2 years.

I truly believe the fatal flaw of the BRS ULM series was the rock. I was just rewatching it recently, and the failed SPS tank, I could immediately recognize the stage from my recent use of the dry rock.

 

[X-37B]

@Ippyroy I was *just* looking at https://www.ipsf.com/ . There's a lot to choose from here, what do you recommend when starting a new tank that will be FOWLR for the first 6-8 months, then beginner soft corals later in the year?

I'm planning on a no-fish cycle with CaribSea's "Life" Rock. I don't have access to any "live" rock (aside from having it shipped from somewhere).

I would higly recommend some live rock if at all possible.
I used 50% live and 50% caribsea in my 120.
The live rock came from my 25 nano.
No cycle seen and I started adding coral and fish at 1 month at a slow pace.
The only place I saw bad algae was on the caribsea.
1.5 years later you can not tell live from the dead.
I was running 8 T5's at startup and ran 2 on for 2 weeks then 4 for 2 weeks then 6 for 2 weeks then all 8.
The uglies were minimized by doing this.