LED’s for large tank - what would be your choice?

[Peter K]

Good morning all,

So come April/May, we will be upgrading to a 425g tank - 120”x36”x24” and are going through the planning phase right now. I took advantage of Black Friday to buy a decent amount of the equipment and have planned most things out,however, the one aspect that I change my mind on about 15 times a week is what to light the tank with. We currently have a 180 light by 5 kessil 360’s and 1 orphek light bar and a frag tank lit by another 2 kessils. My original plan was to use those existing kessils + 4-5 more and supplement with 4 Orphek light bars to aid with shadowing, however, I’ve been having some issues with our current lights lately and was about ready to go replace all the lights out of my frustration. The goal for this tank is sps dominated.

So my question to you is; if this was your tank, what would be your selection for LED’s + quantity for this size tank? (Most likely going to add t5 retrofits as well). Budget isn’t unlimited but not looking to skimp out either. Thank you in advanced!

 

[EmdeReef]

BRS just posted a video on this that may help give you some ideas: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/

My preference has always been more lights, then you can raise them higher to eliminate the dreaded disco ball effect (if using leds) and usually don’t have to run them at 100%.

I’m running 5 hydras 52 on my 6ft tank. I know it’s an overkill but there’s very little shading and the tank looks as close as t5 as I’ve seen and no disco ball.

 

[dantimdad]

To be honest, these questions/polls are always kind of silly because you will generally get the most expensive thing suggested.

Why? People want to feel they spent their money wisely and the more folks they can get to buy what they have, the more justified they are.

I am NOT saying don't buy expensive stuff. What I am saying is you can do research and find out that money is not necessarily the answer.

Even in BRS own video, they say that the settings are a distraction and that storms and such are a novelty. These things add to the cost of a light.

By the time you are ready, the real world test results will be available comparing low cost options to more expensive ones. This will never, ever dissuade or convert those who believe money solves everything but, I bet it will surprise folks at how affordable lighting that WORKS can be.

Just my .02

EDIT: I have to add that I have tried/used every kind of lighting for aquariums you can think of, including stupid energy hog plasma. I have had expensive setups and dirt cheap crappy ones too.

So, I am not just coming from the view point (and fact) that I am a cheapskate.

BTW, the plasma was a gift from a manufacturer and I still wouldn't own it again. LOL. It nearly caught stuff on fire!

 

[Peter K]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input. My biggest concern is I’ve never come close to lighting a tank this large (180 is only 6x2x2) and already struggle with shadowing so I’m trying to weigh the options for a much larger tank. I wouldn’t say I am going to get the most expensive option, I could care less about features to be honest less things there are for me to mess up the better. I’ve been a fan of kessils because of the plug and play spectrum but have run into other issues with them recently. Unfortunately, I don’t have any other experience with other lights as I’ve been using kessils for the nearly 6 years I’ve been in this hobby so any experiences people have with other lights on big tanks are welcome as I’ve been living in almost a bubble when it comes to lighting. I’ve spent hours pouring over manufacturer data but real world experience with real people is also extremely valuable as numbers don’t say everything.

 

[Peter K]

BRS just posted a video on this that may help give you some ideas: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/

My preference has always been more lights, then you can raise them higher to eliminate the dreaded disco ball effect (if using leds) and usually don’t have to run them at 100%.

I’m running 5 hydras 52 on my 6ft tank. I know it’s an overkill but there’s very little shading and the tank looks as close as t5 as I’ve seen and no disco ball.

Watched this video the other day!

After owning kessils my eye twitches at any signs of disco ball I see in friends tanks, how high are your hydras above the tank and how have they been in terms of longevity for you? How is the software with them?

 

[madweazl]

What issues are you having with the Kessils? With latest generation available now (360x0), is it possible your issue was addressed? 24" widths (and especially greater) are pushing what most LED do well. Mounting heights for setups similar to the Radeon are usually in the 16-20" range if you're after uniform coverage. At the same height, Kessils are a terrible options because much of the light is radiating outside of the tank (8" would be about perfect for a 24" width tank).

I don't get caught up in the price point discussion but will say, most of the manufacturers producing the more expensive options give a lot back to the hobby and the customer support is usually fantastic.

 

[mfinn]

If I had to light a 36" wide tank and had the money to do it, I would go with Radions and T5's, and look at a fixture like the Aquatic Life Hybrid fixture.
As far as using Radions, I've been using Radions since they first came out and they have worked flawlessly for me.

 

[Peter K]

What issues are you having with the Kessils? With latest generation available now (360x0), is it possible your issue was addressed? 24" widths (and especially greater) are pushing what most LED do well. Mounting heights for setups similar to the Radeon are usually in the 16-20" range if you're after uniform coverage. At the same height, Kessils are a terrible options because much of the light is radiating outside of the tank (8" would be about perfect for a 24" width tank).

I don't get caught up in the price point discussion but will say, most of the manufacturers producing the more expensive options give a lot back to the hobby and the customer support is usually fantastic.

Unfortunately I have had two kessils quit on me in the last two weeks. One had the blue channel burn out and the other completely stopped working. I disassemble them completely and clean them once a month every month. HOWEVER, huge shout out to Kessil customer service as they offered me a $100 discount on the first one that blew out even though it was 4 years old and long out of warranty. I had a new light in hand 4 days after my original email.

I’m concerned about the penetration of the kessils as my goal is to grow sps throughout the whole tank. I currently grow them in the top third of my 180 and kessils are doing fantastic, however, they struggle lower down. My kessils are also 4-6” off the surface and my dang suicidal wrasses splash them a bunch, which probably doesn’t help with longevity.

Obviously the penetration issue could be solved by going with the narrow version but am I asking for even more shadowing with those? I’m curious to see how the 360x plays out with the one you sent to Dana (thank you again for doing that). I’m hoping he will either confirm or deny all the questions I have with the light when he completes his study.

I wouldn’t say kessils are off the table for me, just frustrated at the moment and figured I should at least give other manufacturers are hard look.

 

[Peter K]

If I had to light a 36" wide tank and had the money to do it, I would go with Radions and T5's, and look at a fixture like the Aquatic Life Hybrid fixture.
As far as using Radions, I've been using Radions since they first came out and they have worked flawlessly for me.

I’ve been thinking recently of going with a spread of xr15’s + t5’s. I picked up some coral at a friends tank yesterday and his tank was lit exclusively with radions and it looked great, have you noticed any disco ball effect with them or when you mount them high enough does it become a non issue?

 

[mfinn]

I’ve been thinking recently of going with a spread of xr15’s + t5’s. I picked up some coral at a friends tank yesterday and his tank was lit exclusively with radions and it looked great, have you noticed any disco ball effect with them or when you mount them high enough does it become a non issue?

All the talk about disco ball effect had me really puzzled. I never really saw it for years.
Until I restarted my tank and had alot of bare, white rock and perfectly white sand.
Then I saw it. But only in a few places and while I did see it, it really didn't bother me.
Using the RMS mounting brackets my lights are about 8" from the water.
Not long afterwards I got a deal on the Radion diffusers which to me pretty much solved any issue.

 

[jda]

If somebody made me light that tank with LED, I would use two rows of the better Black Boxes for SPS dominated tank. I would have to cover nearly the whole top with panels to cover the way that I would like.

Reflectors are your friend here. I have a similar tank of 120x36x36 and I light it with 3x400w Halides on large reflectors and nothing else. You cannot beat this for wattage and coverage and I spec'd out 16x Radion XR30s to do the same job which could never be paid back since they would save no electrical cost at all - similar to Dr. Joshi, but with a larger tank (he uses 10 units).

Don't sweat the disco ball. You might not even notice. Even if you do, this is the cost of doing business with LED over a large area where you cannot really afford to use diffusers and lose the output. No matter what lights you choose, there will be some cost of doing business, so if this is it, then just forget about it.

The best advice that I can give is to listen to the people who actually have tried to solve your problem of lighting a large tank... it is no joke to accomplish this. People mean well when they try and scale their lighting from a nano, or oven a 240g, but it is not even close to the same thing as spreading 36 inches. Most of the people who do this cover the whole top in panels, or just use reflectors and MH. There are some nice build thread in the large tank forum, as well as some in the SPS.

 

[EmdeReef]

Watched this video the other day!

After owning kessils my eye twitches at any signs of disco ball I see in friends tanks, how high are your hydras above the tank and how have they been in terms of longevity for you? How is the software with them?

About 12” high.

Longevity wise it’s a mixed record - had 3 for over a year without problems, 2 new ones died. AI’s customer service is really good IME, replacement sent overnight.

The software is good IME maybe not as many bells and whistles as the radions but has everything you need.

 

[Peter K]

If somebody made me light that tank with LED, I would use two rows of the better Black Boxes for SPS dominated tank. I would have to cover nearly the whole top with panels to cover the way that I would like.

Reflectors are your friend here. I have a similar tank of 120x36x36 and I light it with 3x400w Halides on large reflectors and nothing else. You cannot beat this for wattage and coverage and I spec'd out 16x Radion XR30s to do the same job which could never be paid back since they would save no electrical cost at all - similar to Dr. Joshi, but with a larger tank (he uses 10 units).

Don't sweat the disco ball. You might not even notice. Even if you do, this is the cost of doing business with LED over a large area where you cannot really afford to use diffusers and lose the output. No matter what lights you choose, there will be some cost of doing business, so if this is it, then just forget about it.

The best advice that I can give is to listen to the people who actually have tried to solve your problem of lighting a large tank... it is no joke to accomplish this. People mean well when they try and scale their lighting from a nano, or oven a 240g, but it is not even close to the same thing as spreading 36 inches. Most of the people who do this cover the whole top in panels, or just use reflectors and MH. There are some nice build thread in the large tank forum, as well as some in the SPS.

Thank you very much for the input, the 36” width is probably the biggest unknown for me. 24” is relatively easy with what is available on the market now and I already struggle with shadowing.

Do you run a chiller on your tank with mh?

 

[Chef Tommy]

I really like Orphek bars, I have sky blue & uv on a 4’ x 2’ with 4 T5 bulbs. I have been really happy with this for awhile. This could help create a great option while not costing so much. I’m still getting a nice shimmer which I enjoy.

 

[jda]

No chiller. That kind of wattage cannot budge the temp very much on so much water. On the hottest days, a good fan (not computer fans) can keep my temp from moving at all. Heat from MH is easy to solve for most people if they want to - it is also a convenient excuse to use different things for other people.

Keep in mind that I am looking at 100-140w times 16 for Radions. That is no small amount of electricity or heat either. ...and then the heaters might have to run more. Dr. Johsi has laid it out pretty well that he saved no money moving from 3x MH to 10x Radions since the cost of the chiller is offset by the heaters running more - I find this to be true as well, except that I never ran a chiller.

To be clear, I do live in Colorado. Even though we get very hot summers, the humidity is usually quite low here. The humidity in NC might be a problem if you do not run the AC. If you do, then fans can probably keep up. You will probably need a good dehumidifier regardless of which lights you choose.

 

[Peter K]

I really like Orphek bars, I have sky blue & uv on a 4’ x 2’ with 4 T5 bulbs. I have been really happy with this for awhile. This could help create a great option while not costing so much. I’m still getting a nice shimmer which I enjoy.

They are great, I have a reef daylight 60” currently and it is great. The cost is definitely a plus and they look like they put out a ton of light, I have not confirmed with a par meter but they visually look super super bright.

 

[Peter K]

No chiller. That kind of wattage cannot budge the temp very much on so much water. On the hottest days, a good fan (not computer fans) can keep my temp from moving at all. Heat from MH is easy to solve for most people if they want to - it is also a convenient excuse to use different things for other people.

Keep in mind that I am looking at 100-140w times 16 for Radions. That is no small amount of electricity or heat either. ...and then the heaters might have to run more. Dr. Johsi has laid it out pretty well that he saved no money moving from 3x MH to 10x Radions since the cost of the chiller is offset by the heaters running more - I find this to be true as well, except that I never ran a chiller.

To be clear, I do live in Colorado. Even though we get very hot summers, the humidity is usually quite low here. The humidity in NC might be a problem if you do not run the AC. If you do, then fans can probably keep up. You will probably need a good dehumidifier regardless of which lights you choose.

I have no experience with halides so it is encouraging to hear heat is less of an issue, always been my lack of knowledge excuse Avoiding running several 800w heaters consistently also amounts to saving as you said.

We do run the ac and the tank is going in a basement with two exhaust fans going directly outside with the grates located directly above the tank. We have an insufficient dehumidifier right now...however the fish room doubles as a snake room so having the humidity a bit higher only makes life easier caring for them

 

[Daniel Waters]

So my question to you is; if this was your tank, what would be your selection for LED’s + quantity for this size tank? (Most likely going to add t5 retrofits as well). Budget isn’t unlimited but not looking to skimp out either. Thank you in advanced!

Very jealous of your upcoming tank! That's the dimensions I wish I could have for a future tank! I have no experience lighting a tank that wide, but I have always thought how I would do it for a tank that size.

If using all LEDs and given your experience with Kessils, you could consider going with 5 Kessil AP700 turned vertically. Your mounting height would need to be around 7" to 9" I think to get the desired 36" spread for the tank width (so one fixture will cover a 24"L x 36"W area). The reason for using the AP700 over the 360s is that the AP700 is about 2.5 times more powerful than the one A360 (older models anyway). Plus, having 5 fixtures, power cords, and power bricks is more manageable vs having 10+ of each if you go with individual 360s. The AP700 is 20 inches long, so you'd have room on each side to add some T5s in as well (or LED bars). You could also throw in 4 of your existing A360s in between the AP700s if you wanted some additional par. You might not even need the T5s then, but I personally favor T5s with kessils, as the shimmer from kessils alone is too much for me.

If it were MY tank that was going to be SPS dominant, I'd go with two 60" 8 bulb ATI fixtures with 6 inch gap on each end and mount them around 8 to 12 inches high. You will definitely get adequate par for the 120" length at 24" depth but the 36" width would likely be an issue. I'd add in LED bars on each side of the fixture to help with that. Your upfront cost would be less, but bulb costs over time will eventually overtake the all LED route (but probably a 4 or 5 year break even period).

Good luck with the build!

 

[mfinn]

I’ve been thinking recently of going with a spread of xr15’s + t5’s.

I think a double row of the xr15's would be perfect.
Then you wouldn't have to hang them too high to get a better spread.

 

[ca1ore]

The 36” width is probably the biggest unknown for me. 24” is relatively easy with what is available on the market now

Perhaps you are thinking about it wrong? My current tank is nominally a 400, 96"x36"x30". It has long been my view that folks light their tanks incorrectly, to wit, spend all this money shining light on the front panel to grow algae that then has to be removed. Pointless! Unless you plan to stuff corals to the very front of the 36" dimension, think outside the box (pun intended), do what I did. I light my tank as if it were only 24" from front to back (thus positioning the lights at the 12" mark from the back). I am able to grow SPS to about 10" from the front panel, LPS to about 6". The front is then just sand. Guess what, very little algae growth on the front and plenty of swimming space; and very little light spill into the room (which I hate). I will never light my tanks in the 'traditional' way again.