SeaDweller
2500 Club Member
hey if you're passing that type of fire you have in your tanks, thru your GI tract, then you can do a deuce in my tank, ok?
Distorted/mutant morphology in Acroporas radial and axial corallite structure.
- Thread starter C. Eymann
- Start date
- Tagged users None
AllSignsPointToFish
"No Longer The Guy Without FaceBook"
SeaDweller
2500 Club Member
but................................................................................................................................................................................................. the snails do it all the time?EWWWWWW....and don't give me the "But, the fish do it all the time!" line.
LOL
AllSignsPointToFish
"No Longer The Guy Without FaceBook"
Where do you think my screen name came from? 
All jokes aside, I have noticed more of the full bumpy texture on the skin of corals more these days, in pictures. I would say a lot were led and the reefers didn’t even think much of it or it wasn’t ever noticed maybe? I have seen more of the typical hyperplasia growth that looks like bubbly lumpy tips a while back, now not much at all. I think each type of growth is different and maybe each type is influenced by certain aspects of lighting? I used to think it was all bacterial and similar but who knows really. It is odd that the smoother version of the bumps, that’s normally covering the branches but still letting tips grow out, I notice a lot these days. Maybe that is because of leds? Maybe not? All I really believe is led is not the only factor.
All jokes aside, I have noticed more of the full bumpy texture on the skin of corals more these days, in pictures. I would say a lot were led and the reefers didn’t even think much of it or it wasn’t ever noticed maybe? I have seen more of the typical hyperplasia growth that looks like bubbly lumpy tips a while back, now not much at all. I think each type of growth is different and maybe each type is influenced by certain aspects of lighting? I used to think it was all bacterial and similar but who knows really. It is odd that the smoother version of the bumps, that’s normally covering the branches but still letting tips grow out, I notice a lot these days. Maybe that is because of leds? Maybe not? All I really believe is led is not the only factor.
Coral Euphoria
Active Member
Yeah I have to say that I thought that it might be a phosphate thing. I'm not trying to start a phosphate debate, but I know of two chemists (and there are probably more) who publicly stated that phosphate interferes with the CaCO3 crystal lattice (its probably an accepted fact now). So, since a lot of reefers these days like to have "some" phosphates in their water (significantly above NSW), I figured since the structure seems a bit malformed and phosphate gets in the middle of it on the molecular level, that may be the cause.
But again this is just my theory. I do mainly notice these "distortions" in some LED tanks, but that may just be coincidence, because I also noticed it in a T5/radion hybrid tank.
Who knows..
But again this is just my theory. I do mainly notice these "distortions" in some LED tanks, but that may just be coincidence, because I also noticed it in a T5/radion hybrid tank.
Who knows..
Yeah, it's hard to attribute it to LED only. I'm sure there's other contributing factors.. I don't think params should be completely left out of the picture either.
Seems it's becoming more common for LED users to run higher levels . So the more I notice this strange growth in LED only tanks it could very well be higher numbers, maybe even the higher numbers plus the LED causing this abnormality. Could be something to do with coverage as well? Best LED only tanks I have seen with natural/uniform structure run a LOT of fixtures and have full coverage over the tank.
I don't think there's enough examples/info here to put together any kind of theory.
Maybe if more people chimed in who have experienced growth defects and explain their systems. I can say for sure when I was using some BB LEDs with a bit higher no3/po4 then what I would usually run. I observed what seemed like thicker tissue. Corals that weren't really growing, but encrusting seemed to build up excess tissue/skeleton giving a weird look. I never ran the LEDs long enough to know if things would have straightened out with time and new growth.
Seems it's becoming more common for LED users to run higher levels . So the more I notice this strange growth in LED only tanks it could very well be higher numbers, maybe even the higher numbers plus the LED causing this abnormality. Could be something to do with coverage as well? Best LED only tanks I have seen with natural/uniform structure run a LOT of fixtures and have full coverage over the tank.
I don't think there's enough examples/info here to put together any kind of theory.
Maybe if more people chimed in who have experienced growth defects and explain their systems. I can say for sure when I was using some BB LEDs with a bit higher no3/po4 then what I would usually run. I observed what seemed like thicker tissue. Corals that weren't really growing, but encrusting seemed to build up excess tissue/skeleton giving a weird look. I never ran the LEDs long enough to know if things would have straightened out with time and new growth.
Dana Riddle
2500 Club Member
There is an ancient paper -Simkiss, I think, that states phosphate is a poison to calcification.
So is Nitrate. Dr. Holmes-Farley has said this a bunch and has references in his articles on each... it does not stop or harm all "corals" at the same levels, but it is not as efficient nor as strong... these are peer reviewed real-science type of stuff.
TexasReefer82
Active Member
I be surprise if elevated nutrients is an issue here. There many tanks that run higher nutrients and have great growth, I think Sanjay does this. I dose Nitrate to my tank so it doesn't go to zero and my phosphate maintains itself around 0.05ppm - and in the past I've had to dose it as well.... and I still get funny growth on that one tenuis directly underneath the Hydra 26.
As a side note: regarding phosphate as a crystal poison - I can certainly see this happening with abiotic precipitation where the growing crystal surface is exposed to the bulk water column. But a growing coral skeleton isn't exposed to the bulk water column. The small volume of water internal to the coral is controlled chemically by the coral tissue. They especially control their internal pH and surely also filter out other ions as well. Phosphate, nitrate, amino acids are utilized by the coral tissue and/or zooxanthellae to build tissue, proteins, pigments, etc. I doubt the coral animal allows such a valuable building block to hinder its skeletal growth. At very much higher than natural concentrations this may be a different story.
As a side note: regarding phosphate as a crystal poison - I can certainly see this happening with abiotic precipitation where the growing crystal surface is exposed to the bulk water column. But a growing coral skeleton isn't exposed to the bulk water column. The small volume of water internal to the coral is controlled chemically by the coral tissue. They especially control their internal pH and surely also filter out other ions as well. Phosphate, nitrate, amino acids are utilized by the coral tissue and/or zooxanthellae to build tissue, proteins, pigments, etc. I doubt the coral animal allows such a valuable building block to hinder its skeletal growth. At very much higher than natural concentrations this may be a different story.
Dana Riddle
2500 Club Member
Hoegh-Guldberg, O., M. Takabayashi, and G. Moreno, 1997. The impact of long-term nutrient enrichment on coral calcification and growth. Proc. 8th Int. Coral Reef Symp., Panama. 1: 861-866.
Quotes from this paper: ...the amount of calcium carbonate being laid down may be considerably reduced by the amount of extra P. ... changes in (coral) skeletal density and ultrastructure.
Quotes from this paper: ...the amount of calcium carbonate being laid down may be considerably reduced by the amount of extra P. ... changes in (coral) skeletal density and ultrastructure.
TexasReefer82
Active Member
How much "extra" were they talking about? I also recall a presentation given at MACNA a couple years ago where a presenter showed data indicating growth of stony corals directly proportional to PO4 concentration. I'll have to dig this up.
The abstract linked below is in agreement with this although the density of the resulting skeleton was diminished... perhaps due to the faster growth?
ENCORE: the effect of nutrient enrichment on coral reefs. Synthesis of results and conclusions - PubMed
Coral reef degradation resulting from nutrient enrichment of coastal waters is of increasing global concern. Although effects of nutrients on coral reef organisms have been demonstrated in the laboratory, there is little direct evidence of nutrient effects on coral reef biota in situ. The ENCORE...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Perhaps nitrogen additions stunted coral growth due to phosphorus limitation???
There is such a thing as phosphorus limitation/deficiency in a reef tank and it's also been shown to happen in nitrogen enriched wild reefs such as the Keys (in a recent paper). I'm certainly not advocating for keeping our tanks at 1ppm PO4, but zero isn't the answer either.
Dana Riddle
2500 Club Member
2 microMol as Phosphate. The paper I referenced states there are conflicting reports of effects of elevated P. A possible explanation - zoox populations increase under enriched nutrient conditions. Coral tissue thickness could limit the amount of this increase.
Dana Riddle
2500 Club Member
If I did the math correctly, 2 microMol PO4 = 0.19 ppm. As P, this is 0.06 ppm. Will someone double check my math?
TexasReefer82
Active Member
This discussion makes me think about how too much alkalinity in the absence of adequate nutrients causes problems - and how alkalinity levels play into skeletal density and growth rate. I wonder if both N and P are limiting with high alk or perhaps it's just one or the other? Just wondering out loud.
TexasReefer82
Active Member
Your math is correct I just about made the same post.
AllSignsPointToFish
"No Longer The Guy Without FaceBook"
My recent experiences would tend to support your assertion.
TexasReefer82
Active Member
To bring things back to the OP's question... nutrient level may influence growth rates and skeletal density to a greater or lesser degree, haha. However, I've not seen evidence of "dysmorphology" related with nutrient levels. Has anyone else?
Dana Riddle
2500 Club Member
Liebig's Law of the Minimum states plant growth is not controlled by the most abundant nutrient, but is limited by the least available. I suppose we could apply this to calcification as well.
Similar threads
-
- AMS: Article
