Distorted/mutant morphology in Acroporas radial and axial corallite structure.

Dana Riddle

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
3,162
Reaction score
7,606
Location
Dallas, Georgia
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The OP thinks light generated by LEDs is possibly responsible for odd coral growth patterns. Since these anomalies are not seen in all SPS tanks illuminated by LEDs, there must be other factors involved, but does not exclude the possibility that LED light is at least partially responsible.
If we believe the Seneye's PUR algorithm, violet and most blue LEDs have high ratings, some approaching 90%, while low Kelvin 'white' LEDs can be as low as 35%. If the tank has the 'Windex' look, PUR would be high but if intensity is low, the coral will morph (flatten) to become a better collector of light. This might be the case with the axial polyps of some Acropora species. If water motion is low (and in most aquaria it is when compared to measurements I took on reefs in Hawaii) the coral might not need to build a dense skeleton perhaps to the point of becoming brittle. Thinking out loud. A dangerous thing I do occasionally. ;)
 

TexasReefer82

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
412
Reaction score
435
Location
Houston
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
In my one experience I had this occur in a tank with moderate nutrients (NO4 at 5-10ppm and PO4 at 0.03ppm). Again this tank was lit by T5.

You're saying that you had dysmorphic growth (I'm making up that word BTW :) ) under those conditions? And if so what coral was it on? A. Tenuis by chance?
 

AllSignsPointToFish

"No Longer The Guy Without FaceBook"
View Badges
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Messages
5,851
Reaction score
9,670
Location
Gulf Breeze, Florida
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Liebig's Law of the Minimum states plant growth is not controlled by the most abundant nutrient, but is limited by the least available. I suppose we could apply this to calcification as well.
I would expect that it really boils down to a limiting reagent problem that's really no different than in chemistry.
 

flockaveli

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
101
Reaction score
117
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Just for an example. I was able to dig up two photos of a coral that show it under t5's and then under LED. No3/Po4 were both high in this tank during both images.

First pic under T5 growth looks normal. Right before replacing the t5 with BB LED
FullSizeRender.jpeg

Here's the same coral after about a month and a half under BB LED. Still growing, but starting to lose definition in the corals structure. Color change due to slightly less par I would assume. However, growth never slowed down.. just started to get weird looking, imo. Tissue seems like it bulked up some extra layers. LEDs came off soon after this.
IMG_9821.jpeg
 

Jordan Prather

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
311
Reaction score
307
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
In my one experience I had this occur in a tank with moderate nutrients (NO4 at 5-10ppm and PO4 at 0.03ppm). Again this tank was lit by T5.
Quick question do you recall what bulb combination you were running at the time?
 

w2inc

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Messages
411
Reaction score
368
Location
San Diego
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
These shots are my tank. Only LED light ever. All frags have been in the system over a year. I didn't read the whole thread but I have never noticed any distortions that I can point at the lights.
IMG_3616.jpeg
IMG_3624.jpeg
IMG_3627.jpeg
IMG_3618.jpeg
IMG_3615.jpeg


IMG_3614.jpeg IMG_3622.jpeg
 

BuBBly FiSh

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
40
Reaction score
61
Location
York Pennsylvania
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Something I have noticing for a while now is the very unique/strange morphology in certain species of acropora when grown under LED only lighting, compared with corals grown under t5/led hybrid, MH and T5 only.
Example- I notice with led only grown A. tenuis that the dimidiate (lip)of the radial corallites is usually "distorted" or irregular instead of being uniform.
The axial corallites of some species almost appear to be melting/distorted like a candle stick.
Where as the same species grown under T5 hybrid or T5 only /MH doesn't show these "distortions".

Has anyone else noticed this?
Yes, I have noticed than only when placement is wrong or under Led's that are to intense and using the wrong color. What a ton of people do not realize is there is such a thing as usable par.
 

Lousybreed

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
822
Reaction score
648
Location
Sussex, WI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
>>>>>>>>Metal halide and fluorescent are more of a continuous spectrum than an array of point sources of fixed wavelength

No, they are not, and this kind of disinformation really needs to cease.

Seriously....use google and look up the spectrums of reef based halides. I'll do it for you:


Now go look up the published spectrums of any mainstream reef LED. Now show me again where the halide or T5 has a more continuous spectrum -vs- repeating what the guy at the reef store. The graphs are there......they can't be more obvious if they were in crayon. Seriously, show me a link to a halide or T5 with a continuous spectrum.

Metal halide and fluorescent like fixtures have NON-continuous spectrums while LED's have much more continuous spectrums . This is one reason why the mainstream lighting industry is banning and ditching conventional fluorescent and halide in favor of LED.

The reason SPS can grow weird under some LED sources is because you guys want small, hyper dense LED fixtures with the emphasis on software and wi-fi and other worthless features -vs- distributing the light more evenly. If you want to blast a Radion or Kessil on a long or wide tank with a radiating area measured in a mere few square inches then SPS will grow unevenly. If you distribute the light source more evenly, like using a bunch of black boxes or strips like most of my SPS friends on big tanks there is no issue.
You need to read the R2R post about being positive and kind. You are comparing actual data of metal halide spectrum to a smoothed out theoretical LED spectrum. I am sure the real spectrum from LED is much more jagged, and why would any manufacturer want to post that.
 

Lousybreed

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
822
Reaction score
648
Location
Sussex, WI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have a hard time believing that light spectra from LED's are any more continuous that those from MH's or T5's. From wikipedia:

A light-emitting diode (LED) is a semiconductor light source that emits light when current flows through it. Electrons in the semiconductor recombine with electron holes, releasing energy in the form of photons. The color of the light (corresponding to the energy of the photons) is determined by the energy required for electrons to cross the band gap of the semiconductor.[5] White light is obtained by using multiple semiconductors or a layer of light-emitting phosphor on the semiconductor device.[6]

The band gap is an energetic transition of fixed and uniform magnitude (depending upon the materials used of course). While there is a small amount of spread in the wavelengths emitted from this band gap it's mostly monochromatic. And in the case of white LED's a phosphor is often used - this would act very similarly to a fluorescent lamp that uses a mixture of phosphors coated onto the inside of the tube that each emit monochromatically upon excitation with UV light. The greater the variety of phosphors used the closer the net emissions may approach a continuous spectrum, but it will never be anything more than a facsimile of a continuum.

None of the light sources we use over our tanks emit a true continuum as does the sun or black body radiation in general. That would require a filament lamp where the filament literally gets as hot as 10,000-20,000 Kelvin degrees! haha (and a gigantic tank cooler too!)

I suspect any spectragraphs provided by the manufacturers of LED's or T5 or MH's that show what appears to be a continuum are greatly smoothing that graph (i.e. lying). since the mechanism by which these devices produce light is by its nature discrete.
You are correct. That dude is off base and rude.
 

Jordan Prather

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
311
Reaction score
307
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Heres my thoughts and I could be way off on this. I remember reading an article one time about bounce mushrooms. It said that the reason rodactus bounce so much in home aquaria is that we blast them with way to much deep blue light for way to long. Causing a cancer like bubble that deams it a bounce. Now that article may have been disproved or was just one person's opinion I'm not really sure. But I know when I think tenius acropora I'm thinking homewrecker, Walt Disney, ect. Very vivid rainbow sticks. Now I do not have any in fact I only have 2 acros and couldnt tell you what they are. But the people that have the rainbow sticks may be blasting them with the blues more then whites basically causing a morph in the coral similar to the cancerous bubbles in rodactus. That's why I was curious as to what t5s drawman was running if it was all blue+ and actinic could that spectrum result in a similar deal as the deep blue leds. Any way that was just my thoughts. Here a pic of one of my acros
20191020_205526.jpg
 

Stigigemla

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
902
Reaction score
827
Location
sweden
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Looking at the pictures of the distorted corals i think that the distorted part come from certain times and the coral grow normal most of the time. That leads me to think that it is only at some instances the corals get the abnormalities.
So I think it is something like coral poisoning or warfare maybe induced buy owner handling or fragging in the tank or dosing in to long intervals.

But it could be something disturbing the growth of the crystallin pattern of the skeleton. Corals have developed their ability to concentrate their ability of concentrating trace metals over millions of years but as long as I know they have never had to reduce the amount of phosphorous. So I think it is extremely unlike that they could do that.

When I first saw leds in the seventies they had very low efficiency and narrow spectrums. Nowadays with efficiency of around 50% before the fluorescent layer they have much wider spectrum.
 

drawman

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 27, 2016
Messages
3,537
Reaction score
3,604
Location
Florida
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Heres my thoughts and I could be way off on this. I remember reading an article one time about bounce mushrooms. It said that the reason rodactus bounce so much in home aquaria is that we blast them with way to much deep blue light for way to long. Causing a cancer like bubble that deams it a bounce. Now that article may have been disproved or was just one person's opinion I'm not really sure. But I know when I think tenius acropora I'm thinking homewrecker, Walt Disney, ect. Very vivid rainbow sticks. Now I do not have any in fact I only have 2 acros and couldnt tell you what they are. But the people that have the rainbow sticks may be blasting them with the blues more then whites basically causing a morph in the coral similar to the cancerous bubbles in rodactus. That's why I was curious as to what t5s drawman was running if it was all blue+ and actinic could that spectrum result in a similar deal as the deep blue leds. Any way that was just my thoughts. Here a pic of one of my acros
20191020_205526.jpg
I was running B+C+B+C+ so a solid blue spectrum but visually looked pretty balanced with all lights on.

I will say the distortions I noticed came in on a specific frag from a major vendor. I actually saw the distortions spread to other acros over time which makes me question if it was a pathogen.
 

Timfish

Crusty Old Salt
View Badges
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
3,738
Reaction score
4,928
Location
Austin, TX
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
How much "extra" were they talking about? I also recall a presentation given at MACNA a couple years ago where a presenter showed data indicating growth of stony corals directly proportional to PO4 concentration. I'll have to dig this up.

The abstract linked below is in agreement with this although the density of the resulting skeleton was diminished... perhaps due to the faster growth?
"Nitrogen additions stunted coral growth, and phosphorus additions had a variable effect. Coral calcification rate and linear extension increased in the presence of added phosphorus but skeletal density was reduced, making corals more susceptible to breakage."

Perhaps nitrogen additions stunted coral growth due to phosphorus limitation???

There is such a thing as phosphorus limitation/deficiency in a reef tank and it's also been shown to happen in nitrogen enriched wild reefs such as the Keys (in a recent paper). I'm certainly not advocating for keeping our tanks at 1ppm PO4, but zero isn't the answer either.

I apologize for straying from the OP but since it's being discussed here's some links on phospahte and nitrate.

@ TexasReefer82, this might be the paper you're reffering to:
And Rosset, et al, give a minimum threshold level of .03 mg/l PO4

Regarding some of the other comments about nitrates and PO4 Shantz and Burkpile reviewed the data from something like 208 experiments for 56 papers and found nitrate enrichment had a more severe effect on calcification than phosphate. Here's fig 3 from their paper:
1573827095432.jpeg

Getting a little closer back to the OP and the effect of light on the growth of corals. Here's a comparison of Superman Rhodactis. These two colonies are of the same clone line in the same system getting "relatively" (as near as I can tell from how fast stuff floats by) similar flow rates but under two different light levels*. As you can see the rhodactis under higher light had a more pronounced tendency to grow bubbles.

1573830011426.jpeg


Two additional observations I think help show how complex this subject is. There are green rhodactis in this system have never shown any tendency to bubble even though some are under higher PAR levels. In a friends tank under "whiter" LED fixtures (BML) their SUperman Rhodactis show little signs of "bubbling" with 150-170 PAR. It seems pretty clear from a multitude of papers by Dana and others as well as my own experiences with multiple systems over the years we need to expect not only species specific but genotype/variety specific responses to a wide range of and sometimes subtle differences in environmental conditions.

* Custom LED fixtures with Cree XP-G2 CW (6500K and 5000K), XP-E2 B and RB
 

Charlie’s Frags

Follow me on Instagram @Charlies Frags
View Badges
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
6,129
Reaction score
9,449
Location
Houston
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I apologize for straying from the OP but since it's being discussed here's some links on phospahte and nitrate.

@ TexasReefer82, this might be the paper you're reffering to:
And Rosset, et al, give a minimum threshold level of .03 mg/l PO4

Regarding some of the other comments about nitrates and PO4 Shantz and Burkpile reviewed the data from something like 208 experiments for 56 papers and found nitrate enrichment had a more severe effect on calcification than phosphate. Here's fig 3 from their paper:
1573827095432.jpeg

Getting a little closer back to the OP and the effect of light on the growth of corals. Here's a comparison of Superman Rhodactis. These two colonies are of the same clone line in the same system getting "relatively" (as near as I can tell from how fast stuff floats by) similar flow rates but under two different light levels*. As you can see the rhodactis under higher light had a more pronounced tendency to grow bubbles.

1573830011426.jpeg


Two additional observations I think help show how complex this subject is. There are green rhodactis in this system have never shown any tendency to bubble even though some are under higher PAR levels. In a friends tank under "whiter" LED fixtures (BML) their SUperman Rhodactis show little signs of "bubbling" with 150-170 PAR. It seems pretty clear from a multitude of papers by Dana and others as well as my own experiences with multiple systems over the years we need to expect not only species specific but genotype/variety specific responses to a wide range of and sometimes subtle differences in environmental conditions.

* Custom LED fixtures with Cree XP-G2 CW (6500K and 5000K), XP-E2 B and RB
What’s the ppm conversion for those po4 values?
 

Charlie’s Frags

Follow me on Instagram @Charlies Frags
View Badges
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
6,129
Reaction score
9,449
Location
Houston
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Flow plays a big role in formation as well
I believe the irregular growth comes from linear flow as well. have a couple Tenuis that receive more linear flow bouncing off the front glass and a couple branches have some unusual growth compared to the rest of the colonies. But don’t let me interrupt the led user bashing. Carry on
 
Last edited:

Graffiti Spot

Cat and coral maker
View Badges
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
4,320
Reaction score
3,676
Location
Florida’s west side
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Could you take a good pic of the one close to the glass for us to see? Very interesting for sure. I don’t think anyone is bashing led users though.
 

Charlie’s Frags

Follow me on Instagram @Charlies Frags
View Badges
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
6,129
Reaction score
9,449
Location
Houston
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Could you take a good pic of the one close to the glass for us to see? Very interesting for sure. I don’t think anyone is bashing led users though.
Only if you say pretty please!!!
You know how I hate to take and post pics

I was mostly joking but come on fuego, the thread was started by noting that it’s only observed in Led only tanks, and there is another thread with a bunch of this “dysmorphic growth” and they only use T5’s, but LED haters don’t say anything about those. I still love you though
7818108C-B7DD-44DF-8E85-FA88BF705711.jpeg
Close to the front glass
A2471DA4-D7B2-4D2E-9153-81C8AFC0E404.jpeg
Opposite the glass
7856B10A-B9AC-4B67-A4D9-CB5BA78AE28D.jpeg

The tips of this one are getting direct pulsing flow from my Vortech. Normal growth lower where it’s being protected by a rock
CBBE7DE0-D163-4937-8FF7-CAFB4FC01806.jpeg
C6E3F22A-F86B-4355-B2B0-AF332DB389F1.jpeg
 

flockaveli

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
101
Reaction score
117
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
there is another thread with a bunch of this “dysmorphic growth” and they only use T5’s
Is there a link to this thread? I'm curious to see what those corals look like.

Growth can always be altered by flow. Usually it guides the direction in which a coral will grow. I'm not ruling out flow as a factor, but those Tenuis have that distinct look I've began to notice more and more, and coincidentally in LED systems.

Not bashing on LEDs in the slightest. Just curious why that happens, and if there's a link between the lighting, params, flow, or what?
 

Mastering the art of locking and unlocking water pathways: What type of valves do you have on your aquarium plumbing?

  • Ball valves.

    Votes: 68 52.3%
  • Gate valves.

    Votes: 67 51.5%
  • Check valves.

    Votes: 33 25.4%
  • None.

    Votes: 29 22.3%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 6.9%
Back
Top