LEDs are NOT a cost effective way to light a reef... (at least not for me)

[gcarroll]

They apparently have admitted and are developing a diffuser plate for their fixtures [emoji4]. It looks as if it will cut about 20% PAR though.

20% is fine. No one complained when the diffuser of the Phillips Coralcare also cut 20%. Reefers sang it praises despite the fact that it's performance was not much better than an XR15 with a diffuser.

I am choosing to do LED only on my new tank simply because I have many friends who have successfully used them and produced amazing results!

Don’t know. Just saying it would be a reason to justify having the same pricing given import taxes, not affirming they have one.

Just confirmed. They don't. They just box them here in the US.

 

[MnFish1]

Not true. You have been trying to argue foram the beginning that this thread is about personal preferences and it has been the basis of your argumentation. No mater how many times you repeat it it will still not be true. Quite frankly I believe you have not added much to the discussion. But that is just an opinion, not a fact.

Thanks for your opinion on what I have added to the discussion . To be clear, I was not stating that ALL of the discussion in this thread is based on personal opinion, only your original post/thread. You asked to be 'called out' on your calculations etc - so I 'called you out'. I mean the title of your thread is "LEDs are NOT a cost effective way to light a reef... (at least not for me)".

The reason I feel your initial post is based on your 'personal preference' (besides the fact that you admit it in the title of the thread/post itself) rather than a general analysis is: 1. There is no 'rule' that you need to use Radions as the LED for comparison in your calculations (that is a personal preference of yours). 2. There is no 'rule' that you 'must' use 5 Radions as opposed to 4 or 3 (that was your personal preference based on the type of tank you wanted to have). 3. There was no data to show that the 3 lighting options you chose to compare in your PDF were 'equal' - either in Quality/PAR output or success with corals of any type it was your personal preference was to compare those 3 options (in your PDF). Your whole premise was based on your personal opinion. It was certainly not a scientific study - is that what you are trying to suggest?

There are multitudes of people using LED's on 'Reef tanks' with great success - and at lower cost - Many of them have posted here. It may be that other options are better for LARGE, Highly SPS focused tanks based on several of the side discussions here - conversely, a far cheaper LED may be completely acceptable on a less demanding soft coral tank than a 'Radion' - the LED you chose to compare.

 

[PlanB]

I don't disagree, but people are illogical. Everyone who owns a LED on the forums will push the power savings and the lack of bulb replacement as a big factor. But you can guarantee most will be looking to update from a G2 to a G4/G5.

This new Aquatic Life hybrid changes everything now though.

I think this was the case in the past, as LEDs were developing, and as new technology was making them increasingly more competitive with MH and T5. However, the LEDs today are strong enough to stand on their own, alleviating the urge to upgrade as often. The only thing they need now is better spread!

BTW, MH and T5 users upgrade too, don't they?

 

[Bronx19]

BTW, MH and T5 users upgrade too, don't they?

Personally I'll be running my ATI till it dies.

 

[Potatohead]

Personally I'll be running my ATI till it dies.

Yeah. The tech is pretty much stagnant so no point to change to something else.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

I was not in on this one early and just saw this quoted above, but did anybody hit that 1062W in lights with overhead of 10% (probably high) for a total of 1168 watts for 12 hours a day (also probably high) plus a chiller at 2000 W (also probably high) for 4 hours a day (also probably high) is 682ish kWh of electricity which if it cost $600 is about .88 a kWh?

1168 *12 *31 = 434596
2000 * 4 * 31 = 248000
IS 682 kWh for $600 is 88 cents a kWh which would be criminal in Cali with the capped rates - this looks about 8x too high to me, but maybe more.

This type of thing is not helping any hobbyist with any kind of decision.

I figured when I lived in Anaheim, California with the same lighting with a chiller and added air conditioner cost since chiller was in house cost me about $90-110 a month including added taxes. Never needed heaters. Now I live in Lake Havasu and use two Orphek fixtures still don't need heaters and come close to needing a chiller and it cost me $10 a month to run my lights so it saves me $1,200 a year in electric cost I have been running My Orpheks for 4 years. When I purchased the Orpheks I was figuring a 2-3 year payback so it worked out to about 18 months.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Nearly nobody is using panels that are older than this. Some folks scoff at the 4-5 year thing, but when I ask them how old their panels are they answer that they are younger than this. When you ask if they had LED before, they say yes.. so they replaced panels with panels within the 4-5 year mark and kinda get my point. Some are on the 2 year cycle and replace panels at the same interval that I replace a $65 14K phoenix bulb. I am not talking about total life, but useful life as defined by the people using them. Sure there are some people who are using panels that are more than 4-5 years old but they are probably outliers. I COULD use my MH bulbs for probably 10 years, but the useful life of the people using them is about 1 year on the Radiums and 2 years on the 14K Phoenix. How old are your panels?

High light 'nems, seahorses, coldwater, NPS, high end frag setups are all specialty to me. I don't consider acropora and clams as specialty - lots of people have them. People might not be exclusive with them like I am or are into them to the degree that I am, for sure...

My Orpheks Atlantiks are 4 years and 2 months old and do not plan on replacing them.

 

[FlyinBryan]

Following

 

[jda]

20 pages and one guy over 4 years and nobody over 5. You can scoff at my statement - nobody can else can yet. I don't really care about anybody's intentions, just their actions.

I can get with $90-110 a month in Cali and Arizona, but not $600. I am sure that you saw some of the nuance that Arizona, Cali and Florida were specifically mentioned as places where the electrical costs and consumption are different... a detail that folks might want to know who do (or do not) live there. This is a really good anecdote that anybody who lives here should consider.

 

[Radman73]

20 pages and one guy over 4 years and nobody over 5. You can scoff at my statement - nobody can else can yet. I don't really care about anybody's intentions, just their actions.

I can get with $90-110 a month in Cali and Arizona, but not $600. I am sure that you saw some of the nuance that Arizona, Cali and Florida were specifically mentioned as places where the electrical costs and consumption are different... a detail that folks might want to know who do (or do not) live there. This is a really good anecdote that anybody who lives here should consider.

FWIW, I've had my A360W for between 4.5-5 years. Bought it in November of 2013 but I don't think the 60 cube was up until March 2014.

 

[Potatohead]

FWIW, I've had my A360W for between 4.5-5 years. Bought it in November of 2013 but I don't think the 60 cube was up until March 2014.

I'm not the best at the maths but that's 3.5 - 4 years.

 

[Radman73]

I'm not the best at the maths but that's 3.5 - 4 years.

Leave me alone . I had to go back and check my build thread for the 60 and somehow didn't update the time frame before I hit post reply lol! Yes, 3.5-4 years. Which is about as long as that light has been out.

 

[MnFish1]

20 pages and one guy over 4 years and nobody over 5. You can scoff at my statement - nobody can else can yet. I don't really care about anybody's intentions, just their actions. I can get with $90-110 a month in Cali and Arizona, but not $600. I am sure that you saw some of the nuance that Arizona, Cali and Florida were specifically mentioned as places where the electrical costs and consumption are different... a detail that folks might want to know who do (or do not) live there. This is a really good anecdote that anybody who lives here should consider.

Totally agree - but to compare costs, one needs to know how often people change their T5 systems and MH systems as well - whether because they break or because they want a newer version. My guess is that it is a rate similar to replacement of LED/MH fixtures. If they dont change their fixture, then ballast replacement cost (with both LED and the others). etc etc.

 

[silvernblackr35]

My Orpheks Atlantiks are 4 years and 2 months old and do not plan on replacing them.

If I ever were to make the full switch to leds they would definitely be my go-to. They look great in person.

 

[Radman73]

Totally agree - but to compare costs, one needs to know how often people change their T5 systems and MH systems as well - whether because they break or because they want a newer version. My guess is that it is a rate similar to replacement of LED/MH fixtures. If they dont change their fixture, then ballast replacement cost (with both LED and the others). etc etc.

I think the other thing to consider is to acknowledge that LED's are still an emerging technology. 7 years ago LED's were all about cool white and royal blue with maybe a couple natural white thrown in. Radions, at least to some extent, at least were upgradeable by replacing the puck. Not sure if they're still that way or not. As the technology advances, I'd expect further updates. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

In any case, people need to keep in mind individual use scenarios. For someone where it's cold, LED's alone may not ever make more sense than MH or T5 alone and vice versa in warmer climates. No single cookie cutter approach is "best". And I would be willing to bet that in it's infancy MH and T5 also had significant turnover in ballasts and reflectors. I would bet some people bought cheap ballasts and reflectors and later "upgraded" to nicer ballasts, bulbs, and reflectors. That just probably happened 20 years ago lol!

 

[rtparty]

In any case, people need to keep in mind individual use scenarios. For someone where it's cold, LED's alone may not ever make more sense than MH or T5 alone and vice versa in warmer climates.

This is a major reason why LED makes no sense for me. In a 68° basement my heater runs a ton already! You can see the district moment everyday when my halide is running. My heater doesn't run at all for those 4 hours. I'm going to bump it up to 5 now. For the rest of the day, my heater is on and off non stop. So LEDs may save me some power in terms of lighting but my heater will suck that electricity right back up to keep the tank at 77°. Bulb replacements are the only place I would save money.

Had the Aquatic Life hybrid been out, I would have found a good used Radion or Kessil and called it a day. As is, I'm $400 into my Giesemann Spectra and that included bulbs. I'd have to sell it to offset the "upgrade"

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is a major reason why LED makes no sense for me. In a 68° basement my heater runs a ton already! You can see the district moment everyday when my halide is running. My heater doesn't run at all for those 4 hours. I'm going to bump it up to 5 now. For the rest of the day, my heater is on and off non stop. So LEDs may save me some power in terms of lighting but my heater will suck that electricity right back up to keep the tank at 77°. Bulb replacements are the only place I would save money.

Had the Aquatic Life hybrid been out, I would have found a good used Radion or Kessil and called it a day. As is, I'm $400 into my Giesemann Spectra and that included bulbs. I'd have to sell it to offset the "upgrade"

It's going to be 100 here today.
The Radium sits alone, in the garage ,collecting dust... ;Sorry

 

[MnFish1]

87tr=5-------------------------78[uy

This is a major reason why LED makes no sense for me. In a 68° basement my heater runs a ton already! You can see the district moment everyday when my halide is running. My heater doesn't run at all for those 4 hours. I'm going to bump it up to 5 now. For the rest of the day, my heater is on and off non stop. So LEDs may save me some power in terms of lighting but my heater will suck that electricity right back up to keep the tank at 77°. Bulb replacements are the only place I would save money.

Had the Aquatic Life hybrid been out, I would have found a good used Radion or Kessil and called it a day. As is, I'm $400 into my Giesemann Spectra and that included bulbs. I'd have to sell it to offset the "upgrade"

I may be wrong, but I thought heaters in water were close to 100% efficient, whereas using MH heat is not - so it would seem that you are wasting some electricity by not using your heater (whether thats a trivial amount I dont know). I have a situation similar to yours. The heater runs often

 

[rtparty]

It's going to be 100 here today.
The Radium sits alone, in the garage ,collecting dust... ;Sorry

It was 100 here many, many days this summer and never once did my tank break 79° with the halide on. Again, basement. My AC didn't run any more often either because my thermostat doesn't care what the basement is at.

The biggest change putting the tank in the basement has been the 45ish% humidity and I'm enjoying that quite a bit in dry Utah. [emoji3]

 

[rtparty]

87tr=5-------------------------78[uy


I may be wrong, but I thought heaters in water were close to 100% efficient, whereas using MH heat is not - so it would seem that you are wasting some electricity by not using your heater (whether thats a trivial amount I dont know). I have a situation similar to yours. The heater runs often

I wouldn't recommend running a halide as your heat source for a tank but in my situation, I can certainly use any and all help. Makes me wonder why I choose efficient pumps...hmm

To be honest, the few dollars here or there won't make or break my budget so I don't get too caught up into the whole "LEDs do/don't save you money" argument. For some they will, for some they won't. I want to thoroughly enjoy looking at my tank and no (all) LED setup to date has done that for me and my eyes. That list is very long. AI, Kessil, Current USA, Radion, DIY (these are among the worst IMO), it goes on and on. I really want to see the Philips in action in person. An individual I respect runs one and says it has a serious T5 look to it.