LEDs are NOT a cost effective way to light a reef... (at least not for me)
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You asked this before and I don't think that many have responded. I still use AquaMedic fixtures with the ballasts in them from the late 1990s/2000s. I had to replace one starter/ignitor at about $5. I have some Hamiton stuff that is about a decade old and some about 8 years. Reflectors and fixtures can last as long as you take care of them - wipe them down once a year and they won't rust. I think that 5 years out of an electronic ballast is probably about right and a decade out of a magnetic one is OK - they can go longer, but those are probably not typical. I do have some Icecap ballasts that are from the 1990s. There are premature failures just like anything, but if the stuff lasts the warranty period, I have had them last and last.
Cheaper ones hum, fail quickly and are disappointing... also no different than any other light source.
Big E
Valuable Member
I used MH for ten years same original ballasts and reflectors, in fact I still have them, but run T5 now.
I have a Coralife 175w MH and two bulb Actinic fixture I bought in 1989. I replaced the MH ballast once. I still have the original flourescent ballast. I retired it as I went to larger systems. I got a good 15+ years of use and can set it up today if I wanted to.
The T5 fixture I have now is over 9 years old.........It's been over my Acropora dominant system for over 7 years. I replaced the ballast once for $40. The ballasts I use last 4-5 years .......my reflectors are 9 years old.
There was never the turnover that happens now with LEDs. There was/is no reason to continually upgrade. Most of the companies that made these bulb fixtures didn't come out with new versions every year.
Sunpower fixtures should last a lifetime. Ballasts are $25 each(4-5 year life).........bulbs 20 each. Fans are an easy fix as well with minimal costs .Hard to beat that for the performance you get out of them for yearly costs.
five.five-six
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One metric that I’d like to address on this subject is obsolescence. Anticdotally, it seems that LEDs are upgradeded rather often. The marketplace is filled with offers to sell gen-X fixture because the seller is upgrading to gen-Y version every 2-3 years. But if you are doing that every 3 years with radions, you are taking a $1,000 hit on 3 fixtures.
Nobody every upgraded from 20k radiums.
Nobody every upgraded from 20k radiums.
OP
OP
Thanks for your opinion on what I have added to the discussion. To be clear, I was not stating that ALL of the discussion in this thread is based on personal opinion, only your original post/thread. You asked to be 'called out' on your calculations etc - so I 'called you out'. I mean the title of your thread is "LEDs are NOT a cost effective way to light a reef... (at least not for me)".
The reason I feel your initial post is based on your 'personal preference' (besides the fact that you admit it in the title of the thread/post itself) rather than a general analysis is: 1. There is no 'rule' that you need to use Radions as the LED for comparison in your calculations (that is a personal preference of yours).
I believe I have also updated the comparison with Orphek and Philips Coral Care. If not I apologise and will upload today. I chose Radions as a representative of a Puck style LED. Could have chosen kessils as well but the value would be even less (BRS measurements showed that for SPS you need one for every square foot to match the 250-350 PAR level sweet spot). Also did it as Radions seem to be "the Italian Sports car of the lighting industry" (BRS TV words). They have also been running the Coral study in an attempt to emulate T5 and MH for growth and spectrum.
Again, this is mater of context, not preference. A comparison is only valid if you setup a given context, i.e., if you compare oranges to oranges. We are obviously talking about SPS dominant tanks here. It makes no sense to say that LED is more effective because you can use only one fixture to light a 4 foot softies tank compared to a MH/T5 unit for full SPS one. Or saying that I can light a 4 foot tank with two fixtures because I only have two islands... This basically means you are actually covering 3 feet at best. And even in this case if you go with a 40 inch 8 bulb power module you'd spend a third of the initial investment. Ultimately you could say you could even use a cheap 10w LED fixture for a 4 foot fish only tank. This is taking it to the limit but I hope it helps explaining why this is not about personal preference
It is like comparing two sports cars (Mercedes AMG vs Porsche 911) and saying Mercedes is better value because they also make the small A Class....
Never suggested it was scientific. It is just practical use for us reefers, and I believe very useful info when choosing your light. The data used is from the BRS TV videos testing these lights and measuring PAR levels. I suggest you see those videos. Again, not my preference at all.
Again, my options are based on achieving the 250-350 PAR levels across the entire area of the tank that have been known to be required to grow most SPS. If you have a 4 foot tank but actually are only using 2 feet to grow SPS than what you are actyally saying is that your fixtures provide a 2foot coverage area, not a 4 foot.
Finally (and this is a matter of my personal preference), as I said before I love LEDs. It may even surprise you to hear that I may go with LEDs next time. But I really hate that there are false arguments being pushed like saying that it is a COST effective way to go. It is likely a ENERGY EFFICIENT ONE, BUT IN MOST CASES NOT A COST EFFECTIVE ONE. I love the promised energy consumption savings that theoretically they bring to the table. I believe that they actually deliver those energy savings because even though you need several fixtures to provide ample and even coverage, you will likely than have to run them at 50% of their maximum power so you get that 250-350 spread across your tank. The only problem is that it is not cost effective for the consumer because of the upfront investment required with the puck style options. Again, LED arrays like the ones from Orphek or Philips will solve that issue, and in some extreme cases of closed canopy systems in very warm and humid areas you will likely recover that investment relatively quickly.
From a social responsibility point of view LEDs are definitely the way to go as the reduced power consumption reduces your carbo footprint. Again, this thread is merely looking at the value proposition, not the other variables. Now I leave in a country where 60-70% of the energy produced comes from renewables (wind and hydro). In fact, in some days 100% of the energy consumption is provided by renewable sources. This is paid by the end consumer with a surcharge in our electrical bill because the fact remains that it is still more expensive to produce energy via these methods that more traditional ones. But I am proud of this and happy to pay. But this thread is not meant to be about this either. It is meant to be about total cost of different options under comparable scenarios. I will try to update the file using a lot of the info here. Cheers
OP
OP
Anyone knows how to upload a excel/numbers file? I have tried but it tells me it is not a valid format. Would like to upload the file so everyone could run their own calculations tailored to their specific system.
OP
OP
Your tank looks amazingI use a NanoBox T5 + LED hybrid. No lenses, lots of spread, lots of pucks, and I run 4 T5's for 6 hours a day. I want healthy corals and good coverage so I picked what works for me. I just don't get the popularity of single point (or dual pucks for that matter) LED fixtures, it's maddening to me that many folks don't understand what they are getting into when they buy these things. If you had actors on a stage, and it wasn't a horror play, would you light them up with one or two pucks of light with lenses to concentrate the light? Spread is key, with either multiple bulbs (T5) or big reflectors (Halide). IMO
60" modified ATI fixture, 8 pucks, 4 bulb T5. If I had to do it again I would have gone for 12 pucks but this was a scratch and dent model.
Don't allow Xenia in an SPS tank, ok?
OP
OP
The MH would wash out the t5 and be a waste of money.
Pretty though.
Would that still be true if we are talking about 250w MH?
Probably more so. Funny cause it's done often
Edit. The t5 effectiveness in that set up will depend on distance. And then time it comes on.
Last edited:
wow 21 pages of replies in a week, such a spirited forum I just had to join!
Well I'll chime in here with my experience with about 15 years of reefing under my belt.
The cost of LEDs vs MH is going to be such a variable thing for people that there is no one right answer, one example is on the first page where Randy H-F mentioned halides heating the tank is beneficial, for me this has been absolutely true to the point of my temp raising to 81° in the hottest months is more than acceptable instead of getting a chiller, just in case though I have had a controller turn off the lamps if it gets too hot which never has been an issue except when there's an excessive heat wave that hits every couple years for a few days.
Some more examples
I already have metal halide ballasts, reflectors, and all the hardware, so the cost of the initial equipment is not there for me. If you're new and just starting it would be so that's a cost that that can be handled with.
Replacement cost of bulbs, are you content with a cheaper Plusrite bulb? or do you absolutely need a Radium 20kK bulb?
Coverage area, what type of reflectors are you using? DE reflectors? Spider reflectors? Lumenarc (style) reflectors? I'll say the later absolutely is a game changer versus spider reflectors for single ended bulbs.
How DIY friendly is it, it's fairly easy to slap together a reflector with a ballast compared to a heatsink, LEDs, wiring, drivers, etc, not saying it's necessarily hard but in a "I can't do anything" view MH are easier to DIY, hence you might be more willing to do that over buying a brand name fixture because "hey it's going in the canopy anyways!"
What is the replacement time? REALLY! it's fairly easy to predict with MH bulbs, you hit that 6month window you swap out even if you feel like you got life left in it. With LEDs, sure there are manufacturer claims of 50000 hours, but has anyone ever had a burnt out LED? driver that went wonky? whole puck die? Sure you can say "you get what you pay for" but I was an adopter in Ecotech pumps from the beginning, and the power supplies, magnets, wetsides, I've had to replace over the years definitely added to the cost. So chances are even that top of the line product you have will need to be replaced in some way.
How much is your desire to be on top of things? If you get tired with a MH bulb, swap it out with a different one, the end, if you want the Radion gen 2, then gen 3, ooooh gen 4 has kung-fu action grip I need it! You'll be constantly paying an upgrade fee, because at most you'll get 75% of the cost of your old fixture and that's when there's not much use of it, usually it's a lot lower.
So yeah there are plenty of ways that LEDs do not end up making things cheaper for you, some of them may apply, or none of them may apply and in fact LEDs are cheaper. But considering how much this hobby costs as a whole, and while there is nothing wrong trying to save money wherever you can, you have to realize that there are some features that people are willing to pay more for even if it does turn out that LEDs are more expensive in your situation. With a MH you basically have on and off, that's it, and there is a fixed spectrum based on your life with any single bulb, sure there have been some advances in this with "dual arc" bulbs (probably butchering that name) but having a 10kK and a 20kK look swap each time you turn the bulb on is hardly the same as having the intensity ramp up and down at the rate you want it to throughout the day, at whatever spectrum you desire. Now obviously not every brand fixture does this which might be why you opt for a Radion fixture over a Maxspect Razor which has much more limited controls and not the wide variety of colors available. That might be something that you want to pay extra for, plus you don't need to add T5s or VHOs (showing my age) to change the spectral output of your light, so there are those things. It probably is cheaper to have a light timer, a ph controller, a temperature controller, an ATO, a leak detection warning, and whatever else you want to look at with your tank than it is to get something like the Apex controller, but having all of that "under one roof" in a single controller that you can check from anywhere on a phone, or having logic arguments that go beyond "on at setting x off at setting y" is something some people are willing to pay extra for.
tl;dr version, LEDs may/may not be cheaper in your situation, get something that does what you want, that has features you desire, and worry less about saving a few bucks on one side or the other.
Well I'll chime in here with my experience with about 15 years of reefing under my belt.
The cost of LEDs vs MH is going to be such a variable thing for people that there is no one right answer, one example is on the first page where Randy H-F mentioned halides heating the tank is beneficial, for me this has been absolutely true to the point of my temp raising to 81° in the hottest months is more than acceptable instead of getting a chiller, just in case though I have had a controller turn off the lamps if it gets too hot which never has been an issue except when there's an excessive heat wave that hits every couple years for a few days.
Some more examples
I already have metal halide ballasts, reflectors, and all the hardware, so the cost of the initial equipment is not there for me. If you're new and just starting it would be so that's a cost that that can be handled with.
Replacement cost of bulbs, are you content with a cheaper Plusrite bulb? or do you absolutely need a Radium 20kK bulb?
Coverage area, what type of reflectors are you using? DE reflectors? Spider reflectors? Lumenarc (style) reflectors? I'll say the later absolutely is a game changer versus spider reflectors for single ended bulbs.
How DIY friendly is it, it's fairly easy to slap together a reflector with a ballast compared to a heatsink, LEDs, wiring, drivers, etc, not saying it's necessarily hard but in a "I can't do anything" view MH are easier to DIY, hence you might be more willing to do that over buying a brand name fixture because "hey it's going in the canopy anyways!"
What is the replacement time? REALLY! it's fairly easy to predict with MH bulbs, you hit that 6month window you swap out even if you feel like you got life left in it. With LEDs, sure there are manufacturer claims of 50000 hours, but has anyone ever had a burnt out LED? driver that went wonky? whole puck die? Sure you can say "you get what you pay for" but I was an adopter in Ecotech pumps from the beginning, and the power supplies, magnets, wetsides, I've had to replace over the years definitely added to the cost. So chances are even that top of the line product you have will need to be replaced in some way.
How much is your desire to be on top of things? If you get tired with a MH bulb, swap it out with a different one, the end, if you want the Radion gen 2, then gen 3, ooooh gen 4 has kung-fu action grip I need it! You'll be constantly paying an upgrade fee, because at most you'll get 75% of the cost of your old fixture and that's when there's not much use of it, usually it's a lot lower.
So yeah there are plenty of ways that LEDs do not end up making things cheaper for you, some of them may apply, or none of them may apply and in fact LEDs are cheaper. But considering how much this hobby costs as a whole, and while there is nothing wrong trying to save money wherever you can, you have to realize that there are some features that people are willing to pay more for even if it does turn out that LEDs are more expensive in your situation. With a MH you basically have on and off, that's it, and there is a fixed spectrum based on your life with any single bulb, sure there have been some advances in this with "dual arc" bulbs (probably butchering that name) but having a 10kK and a 20kK look swap each time you turn the bulb on is hardly the same as having the intensity ramp up and down at the rate you want it to throughout the day, at whatever spectrum you desire. Now obviously not every brand fixture does this which might be why you opt for a Radion fixture over a Maxspect Razor which has much more limited controls and not the wide variety of colors available. That might be something that you want to pay extra for, plus you don't need to add T5s or VHOs (showing my age) to change the spectral output of your light, so there are those things. It probably is cheaper to have a light timer, a ph controller, a temperature controller, an ATO, a leak detection warning, and whatever else you want to look at with your tank than it is to get something like the Apex controller, but having all of that "under one roof" in a single controller that you can check from anywhere on a phone, or having logic arguments that go beyond "on at setting x off at setting y" is something some people are willing to pay extra for.
tl;dr version, LEDs may/may not be cheaper in your situation, get something that does what you want, that has features you desire, and worry less about saving a few bucks on one side or the other.
rtparty
2500 Club Member
When my 4 T5s are on (2 Blue Plus, 1 Actinic and 1 Coral Plus), you can clearly see the difference. The Radium by itself is gorgeous enough but the T5s do add a nice touch if that's what I want. I still run the halide and T5s separate though
May I ask, have you metered par or intensity of the t5 and mh individually?
I generally go by top of tank readings on this to determine ratio.
rtparty
2500 Club Member
I downloaded a lux meter on my phone just to mess around and it maxed out at 10000 so I need to find one with a higher range. I did calibrate it against a true lux meter that my father in law uses at his work for UTA. (You'll know UTA)
The phone meter was slightly off but not enough to worry about for our use.
You smart. Calibration
10,000 maxed it. Geez. On iPhone galactica was wonky to use but close readings, in android lux light meter by crunchybytebox. Best out of 20 on three devices.
What does he do w lux for uta? Theatre and projection?
chipmunkofdoom2
Always Making Something
It's amazing that there's so much controversy around LEDs. I can't really think of any other piece of reefing equipment that generates so much debate (except maybe turf scrubbers). Nobody ever posts a thread saying "protein skimmers are not a cost effective way to clean tank water... (at least not for me)." Nobody ever posts threads saying "DC pumps are not a cost effective way to move water tank water... (at least for me)." Nobody ever posts a thread saying "a refugium is not a cost effective way to remove N and P... (at least for me)."
Hahaha.
Turf scrubbers , Dsb , salt and cleaning sand. Lol.
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