Let's Talk About Heterotrophic Bacteria for Controlling DOC, Nitrogen, and Phosphates

[ReefGeezer]

...this is where my question comes in, because i originally bought the elimi np to get phosphates down...however, here i am with a imbalance of phosphate vs nitrate... I would also like to know more about the options with carbon dosing... it seems that carbon dosing should help eliminate nitrate... Would carbon dosing with the tropic marin bacto balance help with that.

Pardon me for parsing your post. Yea... Products like the NP & MB7 line, Waste Away, and other bacteria in a bottle products are one of the issues that spurred me to to start this thread. There seems to be a host of uses for these products from controlling N&P to helping with the decomposition of solid wastes and other organic compounds in the tank. We haven't talked much about those products yet. However the discussions we've had so far should help us when we do.

 

[melonheadorion]

Pardon me for parsing your post. Yea... Products like the NP & MB7 line, Waste Away, and other bacteria in a bottle products are one of the issues that spurred me to to start this thread. There seems to be a host of uses for these products from controlling N&P to helping with the decomposition of solid wastes and other organic compounds in the tank. We haven't talked much about those products yet. However the discussions we've had so far should help us when we do.

ya, its kinda where my confusion is. its easy to understand something simple like "a form of bacteria that eats waste such as N and P". i guess it helps to know the "how and why" to something, but for a simpleton like me, hearing of the explanations, still leaves me with ??? over my head. the product descriptions that i find are almost copied/pasted between the two, so it helps say that it does something to N and P, but doesnt really say what it does, or at least in terms that make sense to me

 

[ReefGeezer]

ya, its kinda where my confusion is. its easy to understand something simple like "a form of bacteria that eats waste such as N and P". i guess it helps to know the "how and why" to something, but for a simpleton like me, hearing of the explanations, still leaves me with ??? over my head. the product descriptions that i find are almost copied/pasted between the two, so it helps say that it does something to N and P, but doesnt really say what it does, or at least in terms that make sense to me

We are often left in your situation. This thread is about how the bacteria works in general. With some understanding or the basics, we might be able to figure out what to use and when.

 

[sixty_reefer]

its funny. lately ive had a few random questions of my own, where looking through the forums, there happens to be a new post asking about it. this is one of those that just came up for me 3 or 4 days ago, after getting 2 new sps frags.

just previous to that, my phosphates were at .13 or so, which isnt horrible, but wanted to be around a .03-.05 ish, so ive been using some rowa phos to get it down, added some chaeto to my refugium to help get it to a "better" number. for the last 2 days, i also used some of the tropic marin elimi np, which helped tremendously. now im at about a .03. right where i want to be. i know that the elimi np also affects nitrates, which is the second part of an issue i realized i have as of last night. normally, my nitrates were 13-15. last night, i find that they are at 40 or so. perhaps it was a testing error, but multiple tests showed the same thing. today, i did a 25-30% water change to get the nitrates to a better number. got it down to what looks to be 20ish. its an api test kit and a red sea test kit, so the quality of one, and the color coding of the other are definately not the best, or most accurate, but between the two, my guess is that its about 20, which again isnt horrible, but i would prefer to be 15 or less for the sake of these 2 new SPS.

this is where my question comes in, because i originally bought the elimi np to get phosphates down, on my old tank, and now that i needed it on my new tank, it worked out great. however, here i am with a imbalance of phosphate vs nitrate. obviously, there are many ways to reduce nitrate (one of them being WC), but i would also like to know more about the options with carbon dosing. from what ive read, and maybe im completely wrong, but it seems that carbon dosing should help eliminate nitrate as well. to help control my nitrate, would carbon dosing with the tropic marin bacto balance help with that, at the uneven numbers that i am at, or would it ultimately bottom out P for the sake of also lowering N or would it raise P for the sake of bringing it to a more acceptable ratio to N?
I guess i just dont understand how these bacterias, between the products of tropic marin work. one is for reducing P with a side effect of reducing N, but then there is the one that is somehow supposed to balance them out, but i dont know if using the bacto balance will do much else other than what elimi np already does.

this is the part that confuses me with the N / P stuff, and the technical terminaology makes it hard to understand for a dummy like myself

Both products are nutrient based they don’t give you bacteria, the bacteria that those nutrients will be promoting already exists in your system.

Elimi-NP is carbon dosing and normally recommend for aquariums that have high nitrates and phosphates

NP-bacto-balance is also organic carbon with the addition of organic nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus this product is normally recommended for folks with low inorganic nutrients, the way that it works is by removing inorganic nutrients and replace them with organic nutrients that will be more beneficial for coral, the content of the product will also make it more difficult to bottom out nutrients as it adds N and P in conjunction to C.

the use of both products will need to be used in conjunction with a properly sized protein skimmer if bacteria isn’t actively removed from the system they will release all those nutrients back into the water column the same way a Refugium would do if not constantly trimmed back, the nutrients will only be exported wend the bacteria is physically removed from the system

 

[sixty_reefer]

Pardon me for parsing your post. Yea... Products like the NP & MB7 line, Waste Away, and other bacteria in a bottle products are one of the issues that spurred me to to start this thread. There seems to be a host of uses for these products from controlling N&P to helping with the decomposition of solid wastes and other organic compounds in the tank. We haven't talked much about those products yet. However the discussions we've had so far should help us when we do.

It will be interesting wend the discussion goes that way, it will also be interesting that some of this products may contain Doc and P and not just bacteria

 

[melonheadorion]

Both products are nutrient based they don’t give you bacteria, the bacteria that those nutrients will be promoting already exists in your system.

Elimi-NP is carbon dosing and normally recommend for aquariums that have high nitrates and phosphates

NP-bacto-balance is also organic carbon with the addition of organic nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus this product is normally recommended for folks with low inorganic nutrients, the way that it works is by removing inorganic nutrients and replace them with organic nutrients that will be more beneficial for coral, the content of the product will also make it more difficult to bottom out nutrients as it adds N and P in conjunction to C.

the use of both products will need to be used in conjunction with a properly sized protein skimmer if bacteria isn’t actively removed from the system they will release all those nutrients back into the water column the same way a Refugium would do if not constantly trimmed back, the nutrients will only be exported wend the bacteria is physically removed from the system

so if i understand correctly---

if we compare it to other things that i am more understanding of, for example rowa phos. rowa phos absorbs P, and ultimately removes it from the tank. or, with chaeto for example, chaeto absorbs N and P. Its still in the tank, but once you remove a clump of chaeto, you have successfully, and ultimately removed the N and P that were within it?

and, if you can answer this, with the bacto balance, i dont want to raise my nitrates higher. my understanding of what was explained to me, is that the bacto balance is used to bring the N and P into a proper ratio of each other. so, with the bacto balance, i guess the working of it is what confuses me, does it simply raise N and P, or does it promote the bacteria with the nutrients, that then keep the N and P "stable"? it just seems to me, that if i carbon dose something that equals out a ratio, something is being raised, or multiple somethings are being raised, to get to that point

 

[sixty_reefer]

so if i understand correctly---

if we compare it to other things that i am more understanding of, for example rowa phos. rowa phos absorbs P, and ultimately removes it from the tank. or, with chaeto for example, chaeto absorbs N and P. Its still in the tank, but once you remove a clump of chaeto, you have successfully, and ultimately removed the N and P that were within it?

that’s correct Carbon dosing works by assimilation also and it will need to be removed from the system, just in a different manner.

and, if you can answer this, with the bacto balance, i dont want to raise my nitrates higher. my understanding of what was explained to me, is that the bacto balance is used to bring the N and P into a proper ratio of each other. so, with the bacto balance, i guess the working of it is what confuses me, does it simply raise N and P, or does it promote the bacteria with the nutrients, that then keep the N and P "stable"? it just seems to me, that if i carbon dose something that equals out a ratio, something is being raised, or multiple somethings are being raised, to get to that point

I’m not sure if I understand it correctly, Are you using NP-bacto balance now?

one thing that is important to note is that this product intends to replace nitrates and phosphates by nitrogen and phosphorus, this will allow folks to have low inorganic nutrients with a high import of nutrients. Sunny is quite successful using this method he feeds his tank a decent amount of pellet food and removes pollutants like nitrates and phosphates wile introducing nitrogen and phosphorus that can be beneficial for coral.
it’s important that you still keep an eye on the nutrients as if they bottom out it will create issues, not long I’ve seen someone using bacto balance and nopox that threw the hole system out of balance as there was two forms of carbon dosing being added to the system.

I would be to attached to a ratio as there is many organisms in our systems that will use nutrients, personally the best way to look at this is to evaluate the hole system, if you have a constant nitrates and phosphates, week after week in other words a balanced system there is no need to think about it, if your system is stable it will mean that all organisms are getting the nutrients they need at the correct ratio.

 

[melonheadorion]

that’s correct Carbon dosing works by assimilation also and it will need to be removed from the system, just in a different manner.



I’m not sure if I understand it correctly, Are you using NP-bacto balance now?

one thing that is important to note is that this product intends to replace nitrates and phosphates by nitrogen and phosphorus, this will allow folks to have low inorganic nutrients with a high import of nutrients. Sunny is quite successful using this method he feeds his tank a decent amount of pellet food and removes pollutants like nitrates and phosphates wile introducing nitrogen and phosphorus that can be beneficial for coral.
it’s important that you still keep an eye on the nutrients as if they bottom out it will create issues, not long I’ve seen someone using bacto balance and nopox that threw the hole system out of balance as there was two forms of carbon dosing being added to the system.

I would be to attached to a ratio as there is many organisms in our systems that will use nutrients, personally the best way to look at this is to evaluate the hole system, if you have a constant nitrates and phosphates, week after week in other words a balanced system there is no need to think about it, if your system is stable it will mean that all organisms are getting the nutrients they need at the correct ratio.

no, im not using bacto balance at the moment. however, was something i was considering to get the N and P ratio closer. however, i worry that my misunderstanding on how the carbon dosing works, will mess things up. for example, i have about a .03 or so phosphate level, whereas my nitrate level is 20 or so. to be within the proper ratio, i should be near 10-15, so if i want to reduce nitrate, from everything of what i did see on the bacto balance, it should level out the ratio. how it does that, im not entirely sure because things im reading or hearing, just doesnt make sense.

 

[sixty_reefer]

no, im not using bacto balance at the moment. however, was something i was considering to get the N and P ratio closer. however, i worry that my misunderstanding on how the carbon dosing works, will mess things up. for example, i have about a .03 or so phosphate level, whereas my nitrate level is 20 or so. to be within the proper ratio, i should be near 10-15, so if i want to reduce nitrate, from everything of what i did see on the bacto balance, it should level out the ratio. how it does that, im not entirely sure because things im reading or hearing, just doesnt make sense.

How old is your system?
as long as you don’t have much nuisance algae it’s worth to try the bacto balance.

The worst thing that we can do as aquarists is to chase a ratio that doesn’t exist, Randy may jump in soon and express his feelings on the subject .
there is no ratio that will be beneficial for anyone on inorganic nutrients, only acceptable ranges, Inorganic nutrients like nitrates and phosphates are basically pollutants making a ratio out of them would be similar to the acceptable range of pollution in a certain city.
there is many ratios in our system, algae, coral and bacteria will have different radios to assimilate nutrients the ratio of assimilation will also depend on species that makes matters even more confusing.
personally if you want a ratio that works just point for stability and use acceptable ranges of pollutants to define your parameters, if a young system prefers to be stable at 10 nitrates and 0.05 phosphates that’s perfectly fine in my view why risk stability to bring phosphates down by 0.02.
the perfect aquarium ratio is achieved by balance and stable system.

carbon dosing is one of the tools we have available to reach desired levels of pollutants and if used correctly also stability, there is many more method to reach the same goals.

 

[melonheadorion]

How old is your system?
as long as you don’t have much nuisance algae it’s worth to try the bacto balance.

The worst thing that we can do as aquarists is to chase a ratio that doesn’t exist, Randy may jump in soon and express his feelings on the subject .
there is no ratio that will be beneficial for anyone on inorganic nutrients, only acceptable ranges, Inorganic nutrients like nitrates and phosphates are basically pollutants making a ratio out of them would be similar to the acceptable range of pollution in a certain city.
there is many ratios in our system, algae, coral and bacteria will have different radios to assimilate nutrients the ratio of assimilation will also depend on species that makes matters even more confusing.
personally if you want a ratio that works just point for stability and use acceptable ranges of pollutants to define your parameters, if a young system prefers to be stable at 10 nitrates and 0.05 phosphates that’s perfectly fine in my view why risk stability to bring phosphates down by 0.02.
the perfect aquarium ratio is achieved by balance and stable system.

carbon dosing is one of the tools we have available to reach desired levels of pollutants and if used correctly also stability, there is many more method to reach the same goals.

i have bryopsis/GHA at the moment, in which i will be using fluconazole to erradicate eventually. holding off for the time being though.

 

[sixty_reefer]

i have bryopsis/GHA at the moment, in which i will be using fluconazole to erradicate eventually. holding off for the time being though.

If you planing on using flucanazole I would keep the nitrates we’re they are now, killing nuisance algae in the tank will add carbohydrates to the system that can drive bacteria up and nutrients down by effect, if you have Cyanobacteria it may cause a bloom also as effect.
if you planning on using natural predators than there is no risks in carrying on lowering your nitrates and phosphates.