LFS Fish “Treatment” & The “Sudden” Need for Quarantine

[4FordFamily]

Great read! Logically it has never made sense to me that a fish store would quarantine. I am ridiculously skeptical when they claim to have had a fish for more than a week or two. I frequent many fish stores in my area. And even some that are a bit far. My obsession carries me. LOL my wife and I comment all the time about how they must lose their love for the hobby. Most of the time they cannot even be bothered to remove dead fish.
Even if they did quarantine, the old adage would still be true. If you would like something done right do it yourself.

Thanks, and yes that adage is quite true here

 

[mcarroll]

Circular 919/FA005: Stress - Its Role in Fish Disease

Seems like this would be a great companion read!

 

[melypr1985]

Great article Ford! Thanks for taking the time Well done!

 

[4FordFamily]

Great article Ford! Thanks for taking the time Well done!

Thanks Mel!

 

[azbigjohn]

A great write up, @4FordFamily! I think @Brew12 's comment really brings it all to a fine point in my mind...

I would add on thought. If a LFS even gets one fish with Velvet in their DT system that store will always have Velvet in their system unless they either stop stocking and selling fish for 6 weeks or they break down and sterilize the entire system.
It is much easier and cheaper to add low levels of copper or drop salinity to less than 1.018 to mask symptoms than to fix the underlying infestation. Has anyone wondered why inverts are kept in coral tanks now instead of with the fish? If your LFS has healthy looking fish in tanks that also have inverts you should feel lucky!

With my latest build, I decided to try and do everything right. I have NEVER had an ich or velvet outbreak, and I had never QT'd, but after reading about to local folks I really look up to having to go fallow, I realized that dumb luck wouldn't last. I tore down an existing tank due to an aptasia outbreak I couldn't control. With the advice of several folks on here, I put all my existing fish through 30 days of copper QT, and 2 doses of prazipro while waiting for the new tank to cycle and build up some ability to handle ammonia. Once they were in the tank, a lucky win on htis forum ended up with a Live Aquaria gift certificate, and I got some more fish, and QT'd them.

I just started kicking myself because I bought and threw in some CUC without setting them in a fishless environment for 72 days. That was poor planning, and hopefully won't bite me in the butt.

With the time and energy we put into our tanks, I think trusting anyone else to QT correctly is a fool's errand.

 

[Stolireef]

Great article but I do have one question. You mention that ich can aerosolize (have no idea how to spell that one). That's one I've never seen or heard before. Wouldn't that mean that all the folks who keep their QT near their display or sump are risking ich or some other disease?

 

[4FordFamily]

Great article but I do have one question. You mention that ich can aerosolize (have no idea how to spell that one). That's one I've never seen or heard before. Wouldn't that mean that all the folks who keep their QT near their display or sump are risking ich or some other disease?

Yes, that's correct. They would be at risk.

Here's Humblefish's link to aerosol transmission of crypt/ich - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

 

[dbl]

Great article Jason...well done.

 

[4FordFamily]

Great article Jason...well done.

Thx sir!

 

[mcarroll]

Great article but I do have one question. You mention that ich can aerosolize (have no idea how to spell that one). That's one I've never seen or heard before. Wouldn't that mean that all the folks who keep their QT near their display or sump are risking ich or some other disease?

Excellent observation.

There are many unaccounted-for vectors for potential pathogens, especially for the mystery diseases. Aerosolization is just a vector that has a really cool word associated with it.

(Update: 1/2018: Found out that the article where we discovered aerosolization actually says it's effectively impossible under indoor conditions. Aerosolization was found to spread them outdoors under the combined conditions of high wind and heavy pond aeration only.)

Yes it's important to have at least 10 feet between systems to help prevent cross-contamination.

• That's 10 feet between display and QT.
• Another 10 feet between QT's if you have multiple.
• Another 10 feet between the hospital tank(s).

It's also important in general to realize the limitations of QT. They are a tool – not a complete strategy or husbandry method.

 

[Forsaken77]

Back in the day, like 20 years ago when I was 19 and had a predator tank, I NEVER, not once, quarantined a fish and never once had a problem with disease.

Now it's completely different. I expect fish to come from the LFS with parasites, flukes, or ich. I don't know what changed in a 15 year span where I took a break, but fish are now loaded with disease.

I blame it on the importers. I think they used to treat fish before sending them to the LFS's and now they must not. Because fish stores have large interconnected systems, if they get a disease in there it's almost impossible to get rid of it.

Now I have to run a fish through copper for a month and then 2 rounds of Prazipro, then observe for 2 weeks before it even gets a chance of going in the main tank. It's a real PITA adding new fish now.

I used to work at Petland Discounts main distribution hub in NY. We sent all the fish and animals to every store in the US. Every day I came in, the first thing I had to do was skim all the dead fish out of the rows and rows of tanks. They would literally keep like 50 fish in a 10 gallon tank. And this was every single tank of fish. Each tank was just the one species of fish. It was horrible! But they went out of business, thank God. But I'd imagine it works the same way at distributors nowadays.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well done Ford family! I've been telling people this for what seems like a decade.

The LFS are moving volume. They are running hypo and low level copper. Of course most fish will not exhibit symptoms!

Yes, just about every fish you buy has a parasite if not all of them! People are really being wreckless and begging for trouble if they skip an observation period or treatment.

 

[4FordFamily]

Well done Ford family! I've been telling people this for what seems like a decade.

The LFS are moving volume. They are running hypo and low level copper. Of course most fish will not exhibit symptoms!

Yes, just about every fish you buy has a parasite if not all of them! People are really being wreckless and begging for trouble if they skip an observation period or treatment.

I do not disagree at all. Thanks, sir!

 

[Maritimer]

It was probably much more _controllable_ back in the day, when each tank was its own system, with its own filtration. A LFS could take down one tank for a thorough cleaning, no major loss. Now, with all the fish in the shop on the same system from collector through jobber through wholesaler to LFS, it's no wonder that nearly every fish comes in with something wrong. At no point in the chain is there somewhere that can be taken offline for even a few days, without cutting deeply into the miniscule profit margin.

~Bruce

 

[mcarroll]

The LFS are moving volume. They are running hypo and low level copper. Of course most fish will not exhibit symptoms!

Yes, just about every fish you buy has a parasite if not all of them! People are really being wreckless and begging for trouble if they skip an observation period or treatment.

Which LFS?

You make it sound like they're all the same, running the same plays from the same playbook. And you make it sound like they're all huge.

It sounds more like you're describing online vendors than LFS's.

Until Online ate the LFS business in my town, our store did none of the things you describe. The parasite issue is very over-hyped online, BTW. I'm certain there are bad retailers out there – especially when they don't have to face an actual customer (i.e. online) – but the good LOCAL stores deserve a better rap than what you're handing out.

I'm glad I have some experience at retail in our hobby and I'm also glad that I still know people who order fish from wholesalers...so I know better. More and more people learn to reef online amid all the hype (probably including store owners) and buy their livestock online too...I think these are the trends that mirror any rise in diseased aquarium animals.

 

[Maritimer]

I buy all my livestock face-to-face, and have yet to see a LFS in my area who quarantines - or even conditions - livestock before offering them to customers.

I have seen them advertise "We're getting in a big shipment of fish tomorrow!".

I have seen them sell fish - sometimes at a small discount - in their wholesaler's shipping bag or out of their drip-acclimation bucket.

It's been more than a few years since I've seen a LFS put a label on a tank that says "Under Observation / Medication".

I have lost half a display to ich.

I have had to battle ich, velvet, flukes, bacterial infections and internal worms in the year since I started a QT.

I'm glad you have whatever LFS you have near you, who does whatever they do - but I sure don't.

~Bruce

 

[4FordFamily]

Which LFS?

You make it sound like they're all the same, running the same plays from the same playbook. And you make it sound like they're all huge.

It sounds more like you're describing online vendors than LFS's.

Until Online ate the LFS business in my town, our store did none of the things you describe. The parasite issue is very over-hyped online, BTW. I'm certain there are bad retailers out there – especially when they don't have to face an actual customer (i.e. online) – but the good LOCAL stores deserve a better rap than what you're handing out.

I'm glad I have some experience at retail in our hobby and I'm also glad that I still know people who order fish from wholesalers...so I know better. More and more people learn to reef online amid all the hype (probably including store owners) and buy their livestock online too...I think these are the trends that mirror any rise in diseased aquarium animals.

LFS is often yet another system fish are exposed to before purchase. Most online vendors ship direct from distribution facilities. For instance, Petco, live aquaria, pet solutions, and several others ship from Quality Marine. LFS source their fish the same way. I too have experience at the LFS level.

 

[melypr1985]

Which LFS?

You make it sound like they're all the same, running the same plays from the same playbook. And you make it sound like they're all huge.

It sounds more like you're describing online vendors than LFS's.

Until Online ate the LFS business in my town, our store did none of the things you describe. The parasite issue is very over-hyped online, BTW. I'm certain there are bad retailers out there – especially when they don't have to face an actual customer (i.e. online) – but the good LOCAL stores deserve a better rap than what you're handing out.

I'm glad I have some experience at retail in our hobby and I'm also glad that I still know people who order fish from wholesalers...so I know better. More and more people learn to reef online amid all the hype (probably including store owners) and buy their livestock online too...I think these are the trends that mirror any rise in diseased aquarium animals.

I actually run the saltwater department at my lfs. I do the ordering and receiving and pricing ect. I know everything that comes in and I know the condition the fish are in when they arrive. I run therapeutic levels of copper in my fish system and prazipro. My customers will come in and buy fish the day the arrive, that week, the next week and unless those fish have been with me for several weeks I cant' guarantee that they are disease free. The fish that come in from the wholesalers are often riddled with flukes and velvet and ich. I know this because I see it every week and I treat them every week for it. Until we started using these techniques and medications that I set in motion, our loss ratio was insanely high. We would lose 4 or 5 fish a day, sometimes many more. Now I lose 3 or 4 fish a week... if that.

I take exception to the statement that the parasite problem is over stated and blown up. I see it every day. I talk to the wholesalers and know what's going on at their level as well. Even though I run my system the way I do, and the fish may eat the first time I feed after they arrive, but they have still died when the customer brought them home. They have still brought disease into home systems because the new owner didn't QT like I told them to. Simply because the fish was only with me for a few days which isn't enough to rid them of parasites. QT works, and even the best LFS isn't going to supply you with healthy disease free fish just because they have good practices.

 

[4FordFamily]

Well-put

I actually run the saltwater department at my lfs. I do the ordering and receiving and pricing ect. I know everything that comes in and I know the condition the fish are in when they arrive. I run therapeutic levels of copper in my fish system and prazipro. My customers will come in and buy fish the day the arrive, that week, the next week and unless those fish have been with me for several weeks I cant' guarantee that they are disease free. The fish that come in from the wholesalers are often riddled with flukes and velvet and ich. I know this because I see it every week and I treat them every week for it. Until we started using these techniques and medications that I set in motion, our loss ratio was insanely high. We would lose 4 or 5 fish a day, sometimes many more. Now I lose 3 or 4 fish a week... if that.

I take exception to the statement that the parasite problem is over stated and blown up. I see it every day. I talk to the wholesalers and know what's going on at their level as well. Even though I run my system the way I do, and the fish may eat the first time I feed after they arrive, but they have still died when the customer brought them home. They have still brought disease into home systems because the new owner didn't QT like I told them to. Simply because the fish was only with me for a few days which isn't enough to rid them of parasites. QT works, and even the best LFS isn't going to supply you with healthy disease free fish just because they have good practices.

 

[Reefahholic]

I can't tell you one LFS in Houston, Texas that is not running copper, hypo, are using some form of medication or treatment to keep their fish from dying because it's all about the $$$ bro. You speak as if your LFS is able to prevent disease. The fish they receive are the same as all the others across the country....FULL OF PARASITES. Most fish (more than 50%) are infected with some form of parasite, bacterial infection, etc. Obviously you are not very fimiliar with fish disease, because if you were, you'd know that it's not over-hyped as you put it. These stores cannot prevent it. Not with fish shipments coming in weekly and going in the same tanks.

It might do you some good to watch a few of my videos:

Over-hyped you say...lol

Which LFS?

You make it sound like they're all the same, running the same plays from the same playbook. And you make it sound like they're all huge.

It sounds more like you're describing online vendors than LFS's.

Until Online ate the LFS business in my town, our store did none of the things you describe. The parasite issue is very over-hyped online, BTW. I'm certain there are bad retailers out there – especially when they don't have to face an actual customer (i.e. online) – but the good LOCAL stores deserve a better rap than what you're handing out.

I'm glad I have some experience at retail in our hobby and I'm also glad that I still know people who order fish from wholesalers...so I know better. More and more people learn to reef online amid all the hype (probably including store owners) and buy their livestock online too...I think these are the trends that mirror any rise in diseased aquarium animals.