LFS says this isn’t velvet….

[lmgoetze]

Hi all!

This Saturday, I got a small adult chocolate tang and a tomini tang from my LFS. Tomini has been fine through all of this. I put them in my quarantine tank for observation. They weren’t picking at each other at all, and had actually come from the same holding tank at the store. On Sunday, the chocolate tang appeared covered in what looked like velvet to me. I initiated coppersafe treatment at 2.0ppm. It was clearly scratching and swimming in front of the power head for about a day. Last night (Monday night) the tang died

I called the LFS to see what their policy was on this. They basically told me the fish was healthy when it left the store (it did appear so), that my parameters must have been off (they were spot on), the fish was stressed bc of new environment (which yes, of course), and that the spots were a result of the tang losing its slime coat, but that I should never have dosed copper bc that is what killed the fish. They said marine velvet and ich don’t just appear overnight, so it definitely wasn’t ich. They did say they’d sell me another chocolate at cost, but, yeah…

I am all for learning, so I’d like to hear the expert opinions! I posted some pictures below, the first one is Sunday night and the next 3 are Monday night. I’d love to hear your input! Was it velvet? Can velvet appear that quickly? If it wasn’t velvet, what were the spots? Thanks!!

 

[TheDragonsReef]

Looks like velvet to me. Keep the rest of the fish in copper so they dont get infected

 

[MnFish1]

I'm not sure what kind of rock is in your tank - but if you dosed copper into it - it may have been less effective. The pictures show some spots on the glass - so its hard to exactly see BUT:

1. Yes velvet can occur that quickly (how far are you from your LFS? (i.e. the trip) - but I tend to agree with the store - its not usually that quick (but its unclear from your post - since you said the fish was acting weird - swimming into powerhead for 24 hours, etc) - exactly how Long it had symptoms.
2. Did you happen to ask if the LFS keeps their fish in copper at the store - if so - this could be part of the issue
3. I'm not a tang expert - but it does not look that 'fat' - even on the first day - i.e. not all that healthy.
4. Sorry for the fish. My guess is that it was a 'disease' - whether it was velvet, etc - I think the store is giving you some bad advice - i.e. willing to sell you a new one quickly, etc. I would wait until you see how the other tang in your tank does at a minimum. You could also ask the store (next time) - to put a down payment on the fish and observe it there for a certain time. 2 weeks, etc.

 

[Brymac1]

Looks like velvet to me and yes it can pop up out of nowhere. That is why as soon as I get a new fish I start copper treatment immediately.

 

[lmgoetze]

I'm not sure what kind of rock is in your tank - but if you dosed copper into it - it may have been less effective. The pictures show some spots on the glass - so its hard to exactly see BUT:

1. Yes velvet can occur that quickly (how far are you from your LFS? (i.e. the trip) - but I tend to agree with the store - its not usually that quick (but its unclear from your post - since you said the fish was acting weird - swimming into powerhead for 24 hours, etc) - exactly how Long it had symptoms.
2. Did you happen to ask if the LFS keeps their fish in copper at the store - if so - this could be part of the issue
3. I'm not a tang expert - but it does not look that 'fat' - even on the first day - i.e. not all that healthy.
4. Sorry for the fish. My guess is that it was a 'disease' - whether it was velvet, etc - I think the store is giving you some bad advice - i.e. willing to sell you a new one quickly, etc. I would wait until you see how the other tang in your tank does at a minimum. You could also ask the store (next time) - to put a down payment on the fish and observe it there for a certain time. 2 weeks, etc.

Thank you so much for your reply!

the rock is actually just straight plastic from the pet store… I know, not the best, but for quarantine I don’t use live rock. My Hanna checker was reading 2.6, so I’m assuming it was proper therapeutic levels. I didn’t gradual dose the coppersafe bc the tang looked pretty covered, so I didn’t want to take the chance in waiting. Perhaps that was not the correct choice to dose fully immediately, but it was the decision I made.

1- Interesting that it CAN occur that quickly! I’m about 20 min from the store. They said it was eating and acting healthy in their tank. When it was in their tank, I didn’t notice any symptoms, but it’s always harder to tell with their lighting. I only had the fish from Saturday through Monday night, and I didn’t see any symptoms until Sunday morning, when I saw some spots that looked like velvet.
2- In my completely typical brain fart fashion, I forgot to ask how long they had had the fish, which would have been nicer to judge everything. They said they don’t quarantine their fish or use copper, but they put their fish in a nitrofurazone bath for 24 hours when they get them, which should “kill all parasites.” I disagree, but I digress.
3- yes, it wasn’t a fat guy but I took a chance
4- I know, it’s always sad. That’s how I felt, it wasn’t the best interaction, so I’m not sure I’ll be returning. But that’s a great idea about the deposit! I’ll definitely ask about that the next time I consider adopting (as I call it lol)!

Thanks again for your input! I really appreciate you!

 

[lmgoetze]

Looks like velvet to me and yes it can pop up out of nowhere. That is why as soon as I get a new fish I start copper treatment immediately.

See, that’s what was weird to me… he told me “Fish shouldn’t typically be quarantined bc it causes them more stress and they all have natural parasites under their skin that you don’t see, so it usually causes more problems than solutions”… mmmk. But honestly, I felt he was kind of being condescending and (for lack of a better term) “mansplaining” to me saltwater aquaria, from 2 seconds into the conversation when I told him I added coppersafe. I will no longer be dealing with them. Le sigh.

 

[JGT]

See, that’s what was weird to me… he told me “Fish shouldn’t typically be quarantined bc it causes them more stress and they all have natural parasites under their skin that you don’t see, so it usually causes more problems than solutions”… mmmk. But honestly, I felt he was kind of being condescending and (for lack of a better term) “mansplaining” to me saltwater aquaria, from 2 seconds into the conversation when I told him I added coppersafe. I will no longer be dealing with them. Le sigh.

Wow, bad advice and misinformation. Stay away from that store. They have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[3429810]

Can velvet not appear overnight? Isn’t the life cycle of it really short on the fish? Pretty sure it could and would show up in 12-24 hours especially if it was already having cycles reproduce in the tank it came from. Maybe I’m off here but that’s my understanding of it.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Beautiful fish— you should be able to save him with a proper CopperSafe course of treatment— provided you caught this quickly enough. But I might be confused— did you place him in your DT with other fish?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Time to find a new store partner!

 

[lmgoetze]

Wow, bad advice and misinformation. Stay away from that store. They have no idea what they are talking about.

Thank you, I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t crazy! I appreciate you and your feedback!!

 

[lmgoetze]

Time to find a new store partner!

Thank you, I appreciate you!

 

[Tamberav]

The plastic rock is actually perfect for a QT tank. It looks more natural to fish than PVC.

Swimming in front of powerhead is a sign of velvet. Sorry you lost em.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Velvet attacks the gills. Makes it hard to breath. They eventually suffocate. Swimming in front of power head passes more water through the gills allowing for more oxygen exchange and possibly making it easier to breath.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi all!

This Saturday, I got a small adult chocolate tang and a tomini tang from my LFS. Tomini has been fine through all of this. I put them in my quarantine tank for observation. They weren’t picking at each other at all, and had actually come from the same holding tank at the store. On Sunday, the chocolate tang appeared covered in what looked like velvet to me. I initiated coppersafe treatment at 2.0ppm. It was clearly scratching and swimming in front of the power head for about a day. Last night (Monday night) the tang died

I called the LFS to see what their policy was on this. They basically told me the fish was healthy when it left the store (it did appear so), that my parameters must have been off (they were spot on), the fish was stressed bc of new environment (which yes, of course), and that the spots were a result of the tang losing its slime coat, but that I should never have dosed copper bc that is what killed the fish. They said marine velvet and ich don’t just appear overnight, so it definitely wasn’t ich. They did say they’d sell me another chocolate at cost, but, yeah…

I am all for learning, so I’d like to hear the expert opinions! I posted some pictures below, the first one is Sunday night and the next 3 are Monday night. I’d love to hear your input! Was it velvet? Can velvet appear that quickly? If it wasn’t velvet, what were the spots? Thanks!!

To add to what the other's said - the store seems to be giving you poor advice on a few fronts. If you continue to buy from them, you should go with advice from elsewhere. Remember though - remote advice from either your store or here can be flawed or misunderstood - especially since it is given remotely.

I think this fish had a sub-acute case of velvet that became acute after you brought the fish home. The initial symptoms would have been rapid breathing and people often miss that. By the time you see spots from velvet, the fish is pretty close to death and it is difficult to treat - copper needs 3 days to cure a fish and by the time you see spots like this, the fish may not have that long to go.

Damage control at this point - what other fish were exposed and how are you treating them?

Jay Hemdal

 

[lmgoetze]

To add to what the other's said - the store seems to be giving you poor advice on a few fronts. If you continue to buy from them, you should go with advice from elsewhere. Remember though - remote advice from either your store or here can be flawed or misunderstood - especially since it is given remotely.

I think this fish had a sub-acute case of velvet that became acute after you brought the fish home. The initial symptoms would have been rapid breathing and people often miss that. By the time you see spots from velvet, the fish is pretty close to death and it is difficult to treat - copper needs 3 days to cure a fish and by the time you see spots like this, the fish may not have that long to go.

Damage control at this point - what other fish were exposed and how are you treating them?

Jay Hemdal

Thank you! I have 2 other juvenile tangs in coppersafe at 2.5ppm, they are swimming, eating, and looking fine at the moment! Running them through full coppersafe qt protocol now.

 

[MnFish1]

Wow, bad advice and misinformation. Stay away from that store. They have no idea what they are talking about.

I would 'strongly ask (I was going to say demand)' a refund. Or a partial store credit - which you can use for dry goods, etc. It is totally unacceptable to suggest a nitrofurantoin bath will 'kill all parasites' (and some of the other things they said). I'm not trying to mansplain to you - but sometimes its easiest to just 'shop somewhere else' - in this case, though - you have pictures, the fish clearly was sick, and I can't see what it was that you did 'wrong'. Maybe your copper dose was a little high - a little quick. BUT - the fish seems (if I'm looking at the pictures correctly) covered with parasites.

I had a similar situation - won't go Into the details - but I had a good relationship with a store here - the store sold me a defective tank. They offered a partial credit - which I took. - I used the credit - and then never went back. Just saying in this case - I wouldn't take no for an answer.

PS - as to the copper - I'm assuming that the other tang in the tank was 'fine' (i.e. not copper toxicity) - and PPS - the plastic 'rock' looks great for the QT

 

[Sshannon]

The problem with asking for a partial or full refund for livestock with marine fish stores is that they typically don't do it. The most you will get is a replacement fish, "at cost" as the Op stated.

I agree with @MnFish1, the plastic rock looks great and I don't think it will absorb treatments like traditional rock would. Were either fish showing signs of a healthy appetite at all during quarantine?

 

[lmgoetze]

I would 'strongly ask (I was going to say demand)' a refund. Or a partial store credit - which you can use for dry goods, etc. It is totally unacceptable to suggest a nitrofurantoin bath will 'kill all parasites' (and some of the other things they said). I'm not trying to mansplain to you - but sometimes its easiest to just 'shop somewhere else' - in this case, though - you have pictures, the fish clearly was sick, and I can't see what it was that you did 'wrong'. Maybe your copper dose was a little high - a little quick. BUT - the fish seems (if I'm looking at the pictures correctly) covered with parasites.

I had a similar situation - won't go Into the details - but I had a good relationship with a store here - the store sold me a defective tank. They offered a partial credit - which I took. - I used the credit - and then never went back. Just saying in this case - I wouldn't take no for an answer.

PS - as to the copper - I'm assuming that the other tang in the tank was 'fine' (i.e. not copper toxicity) - and PPS - the plastic 'rock' looks great for the QT

Thanks so much for your input! I agree about the nitrofurantoin. I wish I could have had time to dose the copper slowly, but the tang looked like it was in a rough spot. Other tang seems very happy and healthy! I tried with the store credit or refund, and the best he said was he'd sell me another chocolate tang at cost when he got one in... I think I'll just avoid their advice from now on, and probably won't be supporting them financially anymore lol #ispendallmymoneyonfish

 

[lmgoetze]

The problem with asking for a partial or full refund for livestock with marine fish stores is that they typically don't do it. The most you will get is a replacement fish, "at cost" as the Op stated.

I agree with @MnFish1, the plastic rock looks great and I don't think it will absorb treatments like traditional rock would. Were either fish showing signs of a healthy appetite at all during quarantine?

The chocolate tang, no, unfortunately. The tomini didn't eat the first day, but has been warming up to it. I definitely think the tomini was just stressed. Has been eating as of past 2 days, so a good sign, I'd say. Thank you!