Lighting large tanks - at what point do you go commercial?

[BackToTheReef]

So I am looking at a large footprint tank, 120"x48"x48", and had originally planned to go with Kessils and T5s but am now looking at Kessils and some version of LED bars (reefbrite XHO most likely or Orphek). That was until I realized that means putting a metric ton of Kessils over the tank. Then I looked at Orphek Atlantik, Orphek and Kessil mixes, etc.

At what point do I just throw in the towel and go with something designed for commercial applications like the Maspect or Orphek options?

The layout of Kessils and Reefbrite I had planned was going to allow for some neat lighting schedules but might not be practical just to get a sunrise and sunset affect over a 10' tank.

 

[nezw0001]

I think that's why many large tanks use MH. That's what i am using on my large tank.

 

[BackToTheReef]

I think that's why many large tanks use MH. That's what i am using on my large tank.

What type of foot print does your tank have out of curiosity?

 

[WIReefer]

I’m going all t5 on my next tank, it will be a 6’ or 8’ tank. But man that tank is going to be sweet! Good luck with whatever option you pick!!

 

[BackToTheReef]

I’m going all t5 on my next tank, it will be a 6’ or 8’ tank. But man that tank is going to be sweet! Good luck with whatever option you pick!!

How deep?

 

[WIReefer]

How deep?

I was looking at tanks around 32” but I think I’m going 24” that’s way to deep for me being short lol

 

[nereefpat]

So I am looking at a large footprint tank, 120"x48"x48", and had originally planned to go with Kessils and T5s but am now looking at Kessils and some version of LED bars (reefbrite XHO most likely or Orphek). That was until I realized that means putting a metric ton of Kessils over the tank. Then I looked at Orphek Atlantik, Orphek and Kessil mixes, etc.

At what point do I just throw in the towel and go with something designed for commercial applications like the Maspect or Orphek options?

The layout of Kessils and Reefbrite I had planned was going to allow for some neat lighting schedules but might not be practical just to get a sunrise and sunset affect over a 10' tank.

What are you going to keep in the tank? Corals? SPS?

 

[BackToTheReef]

What are you going to keep in the tank? Corals? SPS?

SPS at the "top" and LPS towards the bottom

 

[jda]

Most public aquariums and large commercial ventures still use 1000w MH for this along with solar tubes. You do see some large form commercial LEDs, but you won't save any wattage in the end, but you might like them for other reasons.

The best advice that I can give on this is to really take advice from people who have solved this problem before. People mean well when they suggest a version of what they use, but they don't know that what they do does not scale. This also goes for pumps, heating, flow and not just lighting... like AmpMaster pumps and Closed Loops might be your friend too.

I lit a 120x36x48 and we used 5x 400w Halides (every 2 feet staggered just a bit) in some larger reflectors and some ReefBrite LED strips for after hours viewing. The MH are on for 9 hours and we used 14k Bulbs for some more output, penetration and pop. With 48" deep, maybe 3x 1000W spread over thirds. Then, add some LEDs for dusk/dawn and to "blue it up" if you like that look... if not, then just save the power. Hamilton still makes and sells 1000w stuff for the public aquarium business and there is no risk of them dying out in the future.

400w MH will penetrate down 36" pretty well and OK beyond, so if you are Ok with lower light stuff near the bottom, then they can work. The only downside is that clams will have to be put into the rock work or on a "shelf" up higher... which is no big deal.

This tank used to be mine for years, but it is now in a hospital and I am very intimate with what it took to stock and operate it. The only real issue with all of it is that they had to install a hydroponics-style vent system for the humidity, but I am sure that you have that handled already.

For most large tanks, the heat from MH is a blessing... they cost more to heat than light unless you live in the Mojave or South Florida. That 10x3x4 uses 10x 300w heaters and there is probably a 25 amp 220v heat exchanger on the way some day. I see any MH heat as a huge benefit even in the summer in my 240g tanks where the heaters are running at 2:29 just one minute before the lights are getting ready to come on.

 

[nezw0001]

What type of foot print does your tank have out of curiosity?

my reef is 8' X 3' X 30"

my FOWLR is 10' X 3' X 3'

 

[BackToTheReef]

Most public aquariums and large commercial ventures still use 1000w MH for this along with solar tubes. You do see some large form commercial LEDs, but you won't save any wattage in the end, but you might like them for other reasons.

Closed Loops might be your friend too.

The only real issue with all of it is that they had to install a hydroponics-style vent system for the humidity, but I am sure that you have that handled already.

Resolved myself to the fact that closed loops inside the tank and rock work were going to be the only way to get flow given how thick the sidewalls are going to be.

My initial plan was to do some sort of ERV to draw in fresh air and remove hot, humid air, In combination with a whole house Dehumidifier installed in the fish room. Along with every possible surface sealed/painted to prevent moisture build up. (Might also add a mini split to the room to help condition the space)

The heat of Metal Halides is what worries me the most. The increase in evaporation but also the heat build up in the tank and surrounding area. The tank is going to be in a "tight space" and the lights are most likely going close to floor joists. It's going to be in a basement (forget the man cave, it's going to be a fish cave) and the tank will sit lower, closer to the floor to give the 4' depth and clearance for access/light mounting. A handful of 400W or 1000W MHs close to the floor joists concern me, even with fans/ventilation, and cooling.

(Originally this tank was going in a barn with a bar but the property got sold before my agent could get our offer in!)

The ways you can control, ramp up/down, time, etc. LEDs to set up some neat lighting schedules has me intrigued but on a tank that size...ouch!

 

[jda]

You are going to have just accept that heat will be there, or you can spend 10k on lights only to replace them in 5, or so, years. You seem smart and like you thought a lot of this through so you probably know that LEDs do not last forever and most have a useable life of about 5 years in most situations (more for some, less for others). 5 years is a good number for doing your cost calculus.

Mh heat is not going to impact the water of that volume. The heaters will likely run less, but a heat gain is not likely. In the end, the heat in the room is more of a problem than the heat in the water. Don't underestimate a real fan like a few HoneyWells or Vornados - they really move a lot of air and can keep the heat down from around the fixtures. Lots of people try and use computer fans and smaller units which are a joke. Heat is a solve able problem and even in my basement of about 1200 square feet with the halides from 3 tanks (the 5x400 on the 900g above and 6 other 250w HQI), the temperature would move about a degree each day, and the extra heat from the day helped to keep everything warm when the lights went off and the heaters needed to run again.

Just a window with a good CFM fan can take care all of your air exchange needs. We had normal window with a box fan on a timer to run in the early morning in the summer and then in the late afternoon in the winter. This helped with the tank pH too.

Those high wattage commercial LEDs put off some heat too. They are high wattage and get quite hot.... especially in the numbers that you need. They do not have IR heat, but the electrical heat is pretty close.

This stuff can be overwhelming, but once you get into the mindset that nothing is easy and that it is going to cost about $10 a day to run, then it gets easier.

 

[hart24601]

If you are up for it give my LFS a call, Iowa pet foods and seascapes, and chat with Tim the manager. They have a 1500g tank I believe and it’s very deep. They used to use several 1000w mh Halides but switched to maxspect big leds and last I knew loved it and said they outperformed the halides in their experience and considered the change a huge upgrade. Might have changed in the past year or so since I chatted with him about them as I don’t get out there much now, so I recommend chatting with him.

 

[BackToTheReef]

You seem smart and like you thought a lot of this through so...

This stuff can be overwhelming, but once you get into the mindset that nothing is easy and that it is going to cost about $10 a day to run, then it gets easier.

If I were smart I wouldn't be considering a massive tank! LoL

It is getting more complicated b/c the space the tank is going to go into is a little wonky. Now considering doing an 'L' shaped foot print with two massive viewing panels.

Doing math on the operating cost is a little daunting! I had to run the numbers just to make sure I didn't build a tank I couldn't fill. The rough math I did before dialing in firm equipment choices was $300 to $500 a month! So that $10 a day figure falls into that range.

 

[BackToTheReef]

If you are up for it give my LFS a call, Iowa pet foods and seascapes, and chat with Tim the manager. They have a 1500g tank I believe and it’s very deep. They used to use several 1000w mh Halides but switched to maxspect big leds and last I knew loved it and said they outperformed the halides in their experience and considered the change a huge upgrade. Might have changed in the past year or so since I chatted with him about them as I don’t get out there much now, so I recommend chatting with him.

The maxspect fixtures were the ones I saw that made me consider going the public aquarium/commercial route.

 

[jda]

If I were smart I wouldn't be considering a massive tank! LoL

Touche...or you were smart enough to do very well in life and can comfortably afford to enjoy such things.

I don't think that you are going to get Hobby level spectrum control out of those Maxspect fixtures. Check it out really well. The only person that I know that has some had to pick his color temperature when he ordered them - the only reason that I remember this is that he was not totally happy with what he chose and had to live with it. Perhaps all of this has changed since that was at least two years ago. They got hot (room hot, not IR hot) and he had to blow a fan across them. He went back and forth from 4x400w halides to 5x300w Maxspect units. The Maxspects spread OK, but had more shadows than the 20" MH reflectors, which is to be expected. He got rid of the tank without enough time to see results, so no idea what they could have done with either lights. You just have to buy in one way or another, but do not get caught up into the idea that you can do the same like for less wattage and power - this just does not work over most tanks, but especially large ones. If you want the LEDs, then cool, but plan on the same running costs.

The only large reef tank that I see here lit by LED is about 12x4x4 and it has a bunch (like 20 maybe) of Exotica Cannons, but they can only grow mushrooms and xenia and stuff with PAR of less than 100 down more than a foot or two deep. This is what they want or else they could upgrade, but the typical person who comes in is mesmerized by these softies swaying in the current and the fish and do not know that they are corals that most people do not want. Those things are like 150w.

If it makes you feel any better, if you are good at this hobby, you can sell massive amounts of frags out of that tank that easily pay for everything else. Once stuff gets large, it grows like crazy so you will be swimming in corals one day.

 

[BackToTheReef]

Touche...or you were smart enough to do very well in life and can comfortably afford to enjoy such things.

If it makes you feel any better, if you are good at this hobby, you can sell massive amounts of frags out of that tank that easily pay for everything else. Once stuff gets large, it grows like crazy so you will be swimming in corals one day.

I wouldn't say comfortably I didn't want to set up a tank just so I could frag but the thought has crossed my mind to start with a frag system or two as I build the big tank to help offset some costs or if nothing else just livestock costs.

Yeah, the spectrum issue is one of the reasons I was leaning away from the larger LED fixtures. MHs sure seem to make sense from a cost effectiveness and success perspective. They work. I am not a fan of the all blue look all the time and would tend towards the 10k with some XHOs or T5s to bring more of the actinics to the party. Especially in the AM/PM.

 

[jda]

Keep on being smart and you will find something that works for you. If you figure out something that is organic to your personality, then it will be a lot of fun. The great thing about large-tank stuff is that you can find lots of it used for not too much if you look around... like AmpMaster 6000+ GPH pumps for $200, MH stuff or even use hydroponics stuff which is usually really good quality too. It takes some patience. Also, if you are still in Ohio, then there are more high quality reefers there that I know than nearly anywhere else in the country, so there is probably a good used-goods community nearby.

If nothing else, a frag system can help you start to accumulate livestock for the big tank. I just use the same sumps for all of my frag tanks which makes it easy.

I just have a few tanks now in the 200-240g range, but I have a 10x4x3 dry in the garage that I am going to set up once more of the kids are gone and I have a family room again to myself. The single 10x4x3 will be cheaper than all of the others, but I will have to run all of them for about a year to make the transition. I am collecting rock and PanWorld/AmpMaster pumps since they can sit forever without needing warranties. Having the big tank before taught me that you do not want to be hasty setting one up since they are harder to change later.

 

[jda]

One last thing... Sea Sweeps with Tunze 6255s should be in your research list.

 

[Steve H]

I wouldn't count on 1000w MH being around forever (at least in terms of their practical use over reef aquariums). There were always fewer options in this wattage to begin with and some of the stadium light manufacturers have dropped out (Hubbel for example) in favor of LED fixtures (lamp choices have also dwindled). The maxspect floodlights have two channel color/intensity control (plus you select the kelvin temp when you purchase) and are very reliable. I agree on the spread and need for more LED fixtures vs MH (so don't expect much in the way of electrical savings). There are a few big reefs using the maxspects out there. The Orphek Amazonas are a good option, smaller form factor, controlled by apex. They seem to be more reliable than the Atlantiks. I don't know anyone with a mature reef using them long term but they are worth the look.