Lion King's observations of keeping lions long term

[jasonrusso]

Here’s my fuzzy. Started him on guppies and ghost shrimp. After I got the powder blue, he decided to grab chunks of LRS and Rods. Are these sufficient or should I supplement any other frozen food like krill or silversides? He doubled in size since I got him, was maybe 2” max when I got him.

Mine eats LRS chunky along with the community. Just keep an eye on him. If he is getting big pieces and takes a break in between (sometimes mine gets a big piece he needs to work on), has a round belly, then he is probably doing ok. I target feed mine salmon chunks (low thimananese) with vitachem from time to time.

 

[lion king]

Nice write up for sure.. When you say "dead food", are you referring to frozen cubes namely?. We feed our volitan frozen krill, silversides, clams that I defrost in in cup with tank water. Took few months to "train" him to eat other than ghosties... We feed him every other day and he seems to like it that way. Comes to corner when it's time like a puppy..

That looks like a zebra, and when I say dead I mean anything dead. He looks good and thick, the way he should. Eating from the water column is fine as long as you are target feeding him. When I make the point about many languishing away it's about people that broadcast feed things like mysis, marine mix, and such, not target feeding chunky foods and paying close attention to make sure they eat enough. Since I've been feeding a majority live diet my lions have lived for 10plus years. My current crew; I have 3 now for 7plus years. They also seem to be much more active.

 

[lion king]

Here’s my fuzzy. Started him on guppies and ghost shrimp. After I got the powder blue, he decided to grab chunks of LRS and Rods. Are these sufficient or should I supplement any other frozen food like krill or silversides? He doubled in size since I got him, was maybe 2” max when I got him.

Tried adding the video but it would never play in the post.

Lrs has a variety of mixed seafood and is a very good food. As long as he is getting his full every 2-3 days any variety of chunky foods is good. Comparing the longevity of the lions I have been keeping to others I know and feedback from the lfs I visit, i have become a stanch advocate of live foods. I believe the live foods provide a gut health that dead foods can not, so I will always recommend some live supplemental feeding.

 

[lion king]

I only use CP (chloroquine phosphate) and GC in my quarantine protocol. I DO have copper on hand, but I truly believe that copper is a poison that you HOPE kills the parasite before the fish. CP is much safer and is much easier on the fish.

I have put multiple lions, anglers, etc through my CP/GC treatment with no losses and no loss of appetite. It also gives me a chance to stick train while they are alone. I haven't met an ambush hunter yet that I haven't stick trained. Fuzzies are the easiest, usually within 24 hours they are eating off my feeding tool.

As far as treatment goes, I've found that less is best. Treatment for internal parasites is a must, as many if I say most come in with them, and yes I have found gc to be the most effective. I've never used cp and have only seen the most sickly lions succumb to ick or velvet, I believe there super slime coating and shedding ability must have something to do with that. It's not just about surviving the treatment, it's about the possible internal damage caused from the medication. Most lions I've seen exposed to a number of meds generally don't have a long life.

 

[AnTrider]

That looks like a zebra, and when I say dead I mean anything dead. He looks good and thick, the way he should. Eating from the water column is fine as long as you are target feeding him. When I make the point about many languishing away it's about people that broadcast feed things like mysis, marine mix, and such, not target feeding chunky foods and paying close attention to make sure they eat enough. Since I've been feeding a majority live diet my lions have lived for 10plus years. My current crew; I have 3 now for 7plus years. They also seem to be much more active.

Gotcha.... We dont broadcast feed. We feed him and the snowflake eel that's with him with tongs. That way I know what & how much they both eat. First signs of illness is lack of appetite so, I'll know right away. Plus, other that couple turbo snails, no cuc in their tank so dont want wasted food floating & decaying..

 

[lion king]

Some added notes while doing your research, I again state I in no way consider myself an expert and certainly my way is not the only way. But i myself have been mislead by info that had proved to be short term success at best. If you consider keeping a lion for a year to year and half success, then there's no need to take me seriously.

Beware of photo op tanks, it's easy enough to spend some money and immediately make a bang up tank. Stock with a number of beautiful specimens, all healthy and getting along great. Take a 1000 pics over the next few weeks, and everything is dead in a few months. While researching try and find a time line, a 7" antennata with a 10" wingspan is not going to live longterm in a 40B.

A dead food only diet, really how long has your dwarf and medium bodied lions been eating a dead only diet. Maybe you can search better than I, i only see 2-4" little lions with post about weaning to a dead food only diet. I never see the 6-7" guys 3 years later still eating a dead only diet. I did have a fuzzy on a dead only diet for 3 years before I had to rehome him due to an illness on my part. It was a challenge to say the least. Every few months he would just stop eating all together, for weeks. i would constantly have to get creative to keep him stimulated for the food, even tying pieces of krill on a string and dragging and bobbing it around. Search for "lion stopped eating", maybe you'll find positive reports of a recovery, I never have. If people at your lfs are honest and not just trying to sell you a fish, ask them. Fuzzies are very popular, i'm sure you know people that have had them, ask how long they kept them.

If there are people out there keeping dwarf and medium bodied lions longterm on a dead only diet, please post your chronicle. While I am a live food advocate I'm sure others would love to get your info. share your techniques and nutritional tips to keep them healthy and thriving for years.

 

[Roid Reefs]

Good point about her taking the silversides because it's what you are feeding the eel. They will do that, competing for food. People will have an easier time getting them to take dead if there's something else eating an appropriate meal. What I mean by that is chunky meats, not mysis and such floating in the water column.

The lions we kept at the old lfs I was at we had on frozen krill daily and a silverside every other day. Things were huge. over 2 years old. I did not see any issues with them starving. Those two beasts were always fat.
Edit: let me elaborate. one frozen krill day one - One silverside on day two - krill day three - silverside day 4- krill day 5 - two days off they were not fed.

 

[lion king]

The lions we kept at the old lfs I was at we had on frozen krill daily and a silverside every other day. Things were huge. over 2 years old. I did not see any issues with them starving. Those two beasts were always fat.
Edit: let me elaborate. one frozen krill day one - One silverside on day two - krill day three - silverside day 4- krill day 5 - two days off they were not fed.

Im just working from percentages, most dont live more than a 1 to 1.5 years. There are some factors that I have identified as what I think may be at the root. Most hobbyist dont want to feed live, yet I have found no examples of real life info of how to make that longterm. I only see the initial weaning as it were, is is tank dynamics, is it competing, are there other factors that help to keep these guys long term on a dead diet. Ive seen hundreds and havent found it yet, An isolated example here or there doesn't cut it when most die rather quickly. I would imagine many hobbyist would have let my fuzzy die the 1zt time he went on an extended hunger strike, it took alot of effort keeping him going. So whats the secret.

 

[JasonK84]

Are there certain lions that fair better? I’ve been of getting a Volitans but would jump on a Mombasa if I ever found one.

 

[lion king]

Are there certain lions that fair better? I’ve been of getting a Volitans but would jump on a Mombasa if I ever found one.

Volitans are really easy when comes down to it. They generally take to dead food quite easily and live well over a decade if cared for properly. I've never had a problem feeding a volitan long term on a variety of dead food. All lions regardly have a high frequency of internal parasites, so treatment is always recommended.

Mombasa's are hard to come by, and unless you are an expert, the antennatta is almost identical. There are some markings on the dorsal fins and the length of the fin rays are different, otherwise many times a mombasa is actually identified as an antennatta. The mombasa may be a bit shorter and stockier, slightly. They are just as challenging as the other medium bodied lons, and very suseptible to copper poisoning, so do not get one from a source that runs copper in their system. As you really should not get any lion from these sources.

 

[Roid Reefs]

Im just working from percentages, most dont live more than a 1 to 1.5 years. There are some factors that I have identified as what I think may be at the root. Most hobbyist dont want to feed live, yet I have found no examples of real life info of how to make that longterm. I only see the initial weaning as it were, is is tank dynamics, is it competing, are there other factors that help to keep these guys long term on a dead diet. Ive seen hundreds and havent found it yet, An isolated example here or there doesn't cut it when most die rather quickly. I would imagine many hobbyist would have let my fuzzy die the 1zt time he went on an extended hunger strike, it took alot of effort keeping him going. So whats the secret.

The ones we had were in a tank with a Huge Fox and a decent sized unicorn tang that were always stealing food. Kept the lions on their toes. not sure if they ever got a chance to realize the food was dead. they would always wait at the top of the water when wed open the tanks for feeding and snatch up any food as soon as it hit the water.

 

[lion king]

The ones we had were in a tank with a Huge Fox and a decent sized unicorn tang that were always stealing food. Kept the lions on their toes. not sure if they ever got a chance to realize the food was dead. they would always wait at the top of the water when wed open the tanks for feeding and snatch up any food as soon as it hit the water.

I think there is something with the competition of food. What I found with the lions that stopped eating dead food, it was more like apathy. It seems as if they need some sort of stimulus to keep going. Live food provides that stimulus, if it's dead only, the tank might need to provide stimulus in another way. I've seen the same with other predatory fish like anglers and scorps. Especially in they are in a tank alone and stick feed, it doesn't seem long before they start to fefuse food. I'm seen the same with land predators, they have at least done the studies which prove these land predators need enrichment in their environment and stimulus. Otherwise their lifespans are actually shorten in captivity. I just read a study that apathy also shortens human lifespan and brings on disease like alheimers and others.

 

[lion king]

Time lapse 2014 to 2019 The antennata and zebra seem to be fish that many don't have long term success. Both of these guys will eat silversides, silverfish, and all the krill I will give them. They get a bunch of live ghosties at least once a week and probably about 3 mollies a month. The antennata is about 7" and the zebra is about 6.5"

 

[lion king]

A 50/50 proposition, this guy is less than 2", while very rewarding the itty bitty's have a very dismal survival rate. These are some of my observations.

If they are lucky they may get some live brine shrimp at the wholesalers, let's highlight lucky. Then upon arriving at an lfs, most will just broadcast some frozen brine and mysis, and it will be fortunate if some of them actually munch a few morsels. They are very, very cute, and cheap, this one cost me $20. So a hobbyists will snatch him up with no problem. They get into the hobbyist tank and are fed the same, a broadcast of brine and mysis. Depending on how long this trip has taken so far, they usually die within a few days at the lfs to a few weeks at the hobbyist.

While lions can go a long time without eating, the itty bitty ones not so much, so getting them to eat is paramount. They can sometimes escape the internal parasites because they are too small to fed the diseased and dying fish suppliers feed predatory fish along the way, and yes, including your lfs. If they have lucky they may have had some live brine shrimp or a fresh water guppy, so free of internal parasites. I would still treat them with general cure as soon as I fattened them up and stabilized them.

So I'm at a lfs yesterday and out of the corner of my eye, I see this little fuzzy wedged in a rock. In a cubby completely unmarked, how did I even see it. I'm like uuuh aaaw, he so cute I had to have him. I've had a BC29 set up for a month waiting on a pair of pygmy red rooster waspfish, I'm still waiting. So I grabbed him, acclimated him matching the sg. About an hour later I dropped in 5 of the tinyest gut loaded ghosties I had, I could see the little Omega One micro pellets in their guts. He snagged 2 on the way down and tracked another around the rocks to the right in no time. This morning he was swimming around and perching, seemingly happy as a lark.

He's going into a tank to keep my yellow spot scorp company, his best friend a fu passed away recently. That's a story for another time, all about sources.

 

[lion king]

So I had an epiphany answering a post last night. So the question is, "why have I never met anyone keeping dwarf and medium lions long term on a dead only diet?". Some say they have, yet I have seen no evidence of it. This is the scenario I usually see with people who have successfully coneverted their lion to dead, and have been feeding the proper amount and apparent types of food to keep the lion growing and apparently thriving. Then one day they just decide not to eat, this may go on for a few days then remedy itself. Then it happens again soon afterwards, this time they may or may not reintroduce live food to stimulate them. Let's say the lion eats and then the hobbyist continues his dead only diet. Then the lion just stops eating, this time for the last time. So why have seen this scenario more times than I can count.

I've mentioned before about how dangerous it is to fall into the trap of feeding krill only. It's well known that a krill only diet can lead to what some people describe as lockjaw. Most people will blame it on what's in the krill, and not realizing it's also what's not in the krill. Lockjaw is a symptom that usually displays as a extreme nutritional deficiency. This deficiency also occurs when a lion is fed a dead only diet, it's what's not in the food that causes "lockjaw". Perhaps, just perhaps, this is why it seems almost impossible to keep some species of lions longterm on a dead only diet.

If you are dead set on feeding a dead only diet, these thoughts may help. Include silversides or some type of whole fish in their diet, the guts and bones will play a great role in proper nutrition. Seems most of us include silversides in our volitans diet, but many don't with the little lions. At least once a week do a vit and efa soak. Efa(essential fatty acids), very important, Selcon or Brightwell Aminomega are two good choices. I still think you should supply some live ghosties weekly and at least one molly a month; at the very, very least.

 

[lion king]

In less than a week, he's a puppy dog, begging for food. Which brings me to another observation. Most times when you get these guys, they are literally starving. The lfs I got this guy from, an honest lfs, told me they got him in on Thurs and he hadn't eaten anything, it was Sunday. If you trust an lfs and they told you he ate some ghosties or guppies the day before, maybe he won't be so hungry. If they tell me he ate anything else, I better see a nice round belly, or I just won't believe them. If you get them online, you better bet they are hungry.

A strong, healthy lion will immediately eat, I have had food in the tank before, and as soon as I released them, they went straight for the food in one motion. I always feed within an hour of release. If he doesn't eat within 24 hrs, you have concerns. If you are feeding the proper food, the right size for the individual, he really should immediately attack the food, unless he really was fed well previously.

So what if he doesn't eat within 24 hrs, I don't wait, I immediately treat with general cure. Not eating is a primary sign of internal parasites, and because of the high percentage chance of these guys coming in with them, I don't wait until it's too late. This is kind of tricky, because some do react to the gc by not eating. If it was internal parasites preventing him from eating, he would likely eat in a day or 2 after treatment, it really does work quickly. If he still not eating, you have bigger problems, and the prognosis is not good. A fresh infestation of parasites can display itself as a very voracious appetite, so don't think this gets you out of the woods, I still suggest always treating for internal parasites. Always check around the tank for stingy poo.

 

[3D Reefin']

What are your thoughts on Antennata Lionfish care? Maintaining them on a live fish (guppy) diet only (not feeders, self raised). Water quality and poor survival rate during shipping? I've had a couple back to back DOA and some die within 3-5 days in new QT tank.

 

[lion king]

Ive had my antennata for almost 7 years, his main diet is live mollies and ghosties, but he will eat some dead stuff. Water quality in my reef is a mess, so after established they dont really need pristine water.

The bigger challenge is source, absolutely can not get them from a source that runs copper in their system, cyanide sounds like its in play bigger than people want to talk about. Any source that runs med cocktails, formulin dips, or any extended exposure to meds would likely mean a quick demise.

Initially feed them live ghosties, guppies, and mollies; then attempt to offer a variety of dead foods. Maintaining live offerings and being careful of thiaminase in foods like krill. Limit any meds and really only treat for internal parasites, because they are very rampant.