Lion stocking for my 300g fowlr, need your help :)

[nldemo]

Hello!

Seeing as how lionfishlair no longer exists, this is my first post on r2r ;Shamefullyembarrased

I have been in the hobby for about 10 years now, and have a 40g reef and 300g fowlr. This post is in regards to the fowlr, which you can see a quick feeding video of here.

My issue is that lionfish have always been my favorite fish, and I've had this 300g for 5+ years now, with the intention of getting only fish that would grow to be big enough to be compatible with the big boys (p volitans). However, many of them have not grown to their advertised sizes, and I'm left wondering what to do. Are they not growing to max size because of feeding and/or environment? If I were to get a volitans would it quickly outgrow and eat/choke on some of the smaller tank mates? Or would it also potentially be stunted in size and never reach the massive 13-18" or so they are capable of? I've seen some of these giants in their natural habitats and have witnessed how big they can get, but I suppose the same is true for squirrel fish (spoiler: much bigger than in my tank).

So essentially what I'm wondering from the more experienced lion owners is .. what is your experience with tankmates and growth? Originally I was looking at getting a couple volitans, and a radiata (once the other fish grew large enough). But maybe I should be looking at the mid to smaller size lions now instead?

Would the mid/smaller size lions still be compatible with later adding a porc puffer & blue throat trigger?

Here is my current stocking list in text form (all advertised of maxing out 8" or bigger):
harlequinn tusk
powder blue tang
Gold Spotted Rabbitfish (Siganus punctatus)
Big Eye Soldierfish (Myripristis sp.)
Spotbreast Angelfish (Genicanthus melanospilos)
Longnose Butterflyfish (Forcipiger flavissimus)
Singular Bannerfish (Heniochus singularis)
Auriga Butterflyfish (Chaetodon auriga)
Raccoon Butterflyfish (Chaetodon lunula)

 

[Picasso Clown]

@lion king

 

[lion king]

My last big boy of about 12 years was about 13" at passing, that's about max you'll expect in captivity, and then that will be rarely, 10" to maybe 12" after several years is more like it. All of your fish fish can play well with a volitan, and if purchased at least no bigger than the smallest of your fish, will never be a threat IMO. A volitan can grow rather quickly to about 7=8" then start to grow pretty slowly. They will rarely attempt to eat broad bodied, tall bodied individuals, more slender shaped or small fish would be more their desire. It's about what can fit in their mouth. Volitans are also easily fed dead food and will get spoiled very quickly, they are just not going to stalk and chase down their food after a while. Most of my posting has to do with the more difficult dwarf and medium bodied lions, but if you have any questions on the care and feeding of the volitan, please don't hesitate.

in regards to the radiata, these are a much more difficult species. I have never seen these live long term on a dead only diet, and mostly have been a very difficult species to acclimate at all. Because of seeing such failures, i have never attempted to feed a radiata a dead only diet. Exactly why a volitan can survive a decade or more on a dead diet and the dwarf and medium bodied species don't seem to, I can not answer, other than there has to be a nutritional factor at play. I do know that a volitan will easily take a variety of dead foods and feeding fresh(sushi grade) seafood including shell on shrimp, skin on salmon, and Hikari brand silversides(a variety that does not contain thiaminese).

I would never include a porcupine puffer with one of my lions, they are notorious nippers. An arothron puffer seems to be a better fit with lions.

 

[nldemo]

lion king,

thank you so much for sharing I was not expecting the good news, to be honest.

I have read Frank Marini's book on lionfish care, so I do have some idea of what I'm doing already. I'll re-read it when I finally place my order, but it's good to know I have someone to ask if I run into any trouble

That is a bit of the bummer about the radiata. They are super pretty. Any others you would recommend (or not)? Volitans are my fav of the species anyway, so it's all good.

As for the puffer, it's either porcupine or nothing. I read somewhere (i think on reefcentral), that people had success when adding the porc's after the lions. But if it's still too much of a risk I would be fine with not taking it. Those cute eyes though

 

[lion king]

Volitans really are the best lions for a community tank. All the other lions seem to do best when their care is primary. They all seem to have feeding and nutritional challenges that is best solved by including live food in their diet. Lions live between 10-15 years in the wild, not 1-2 years. Most people that keep the other lions and are determined to feed them a dead only diet in a community tank, rarely keep them longer than 1-1.5 years.

I have never met a porcupine puffer that was not a nipper.

The key to feeding lions a dead diet is fresh, variety, including skin and shells; and limiting anything that contains a large amount of thiaminese, which binds vitamin B1. Krill and many sources of silversides contain a large amount of thiamine. While supplementing with selcon or aminomega and a good multivit helps, this isn't as good as fresh and a variety. Fatty fish like tuna and salmon contain great amounts of natural omegas, and the shell of the shell on shrimp contain minerals like calcium and concentrated protein. Squid and octopus are also good additions.

You will find that volitans will take a variety of foods rather easily. They may not take something one day, then becomes their favorite the next, the next day not take it. Change it up, mix in something different with their favs, and try and include fresh.

 

[nldemo]

sounds good to me. i am looking forward to everything except my fish food bill increasing

do you think two volitans would be a sweet spot for a tank 300g?

 

[lion king]

sounds good to me. i am looking forward to everything except my fish food bill increasing

do you think two volitans would be a sweet spot for a tank 300g?

I have seen more than one volitan live peacefully together on more than one occasion. I've never seen the male on male aggression I've seen with some of the others. Tank size and adequate caves and perching spots could have something to do with it. 2 volitans in a 300g I think would work fine. Sexing vokitans is very subjective and can only be guessed when they are a good size, 7-8". The males will have a broader, more square head; broader and larger in body; and their pectoral find while be much longer. A bit better to observe in comparison than trying to sex an individual. I'veseen enough success with more than one in the same tank, that I wonder if sex matters that much. As with most fish, growing up together beats adding a pair of mature individuals.

 

[nldemo]

btw, any concern with adding a blue throat trigger? from what i understand they are one of the most peaceful triggers and only to be safe with lions. But again, if there are stories the other way around I would happily avoid it.

 

[lion king]

btw, any concern with adding a blue throat trigger? from what i understand they are one of the most peaceful triggers and only to be safe with lions. But again, if there are stories the other way around I would happily avoid it.

Blue jaws are the most peaceful triggers and likely cause no concerns to lions. Funny I have never had an issue with any triggers with my lions, even some of the more aggressive ones.

 

[nldemo]

really? i have definitely seen those horror videos, and that is enough that I would never try anything other than the bluethroat Out of curiosity though, what have you had success with?

 

[lion king]

really? i have definitely seen those horror videos, and that is enough that I would never try anything other than the bluethroat Out of curiosity though, what have you had success with?

I have kept my volitans with clown, blueline, picasso and other rhinecanthus, and niger triggers; for years, and never an incident. My last volitan lived 7 years with a picasso until he passed, and a pair of blue jaws in a 210g.

These are things you must extract from people sharing experiences. Tank size, putting an aggressive trigger in anything less than 180g(more highly recommended) will be asking for trouble at some point. Size(maturity) at introduction, a 3.5" is going to behave alot differently than a 6". Lightly stocked, triggers hate being crowded. Dig into this and you will will easily start to separate experiences. I see baby triggers; clowns, blueline, rhinecanthus(picasso, bursa, rectangulas), and nigers each year put into 40 breeders; what could go wrong. The size comparison between species with consideration to their aggression level. Lions are not aggressive, they will eat what they can fit in their mouth, and only attack in a defensive stance. If you see a lion on the attack, if it's not something he is trying to eat, he was provoked in some manner, even it means someone stole his cave.

 

[nldemo]

@lion king what's the largest angelfish you've kept with a lion and considered safe? I read a long time ago to avoid the larger angels.

 

[lion king]

@lion king what's the largest angelfish you've kept with a lion and considered safe? I read a long time ago to avoid the larger angels.

I have kept an emporer with a volitan. I have also kept many triggers that people have warned about, so each experience will be different. Some key points; tank size and stocking. Your tank size is good at 300g and don't overstock and you'll have better success. Try to start with younger smaller inhabitants, as larger more mature direct from the ocean will be much more aggressive. Which angels were you thinking?

 

[nldemo]

Which angels were you thinking?

I've always loved queens, i know they get huge though. Blue girdle and blue face, also very cool. From what I gathered, those would be too big so I ended up with a spot breast which is much smaller... but just recently lost it (after ~7 years) due to my current nitrates issue. Don't worry, I'm not planning on adding any more fish until I kick that problem in the butt, I am patient

 

[lion king]

I've always loved queens, i know they get huge though. Blue girdle and blue face, also very cool. From what I gathered, those would be too big so I ended up with a spot breast which is much smaller... but just recently lost it (after ~7 years) due to my current nitrates issue. Don't worry, I'm not planning on adding any more fish until I kick that problem in the butt, I am patient

As you can see I have a blue girdle with the volitan in the pic above, there is also a flagfin. There was a blue face in that tank for a couple of years and just died unexplicately. Not even a thought of an issue. The blue face and blue girdle could easily go in your 300g with a volitan. The blue girdled really stays pretty small, I've had mine for 8 years and its about 6-7" and really isn't growing much anymore. The blue face will get a bit larger but still only topping out around 10" or so. Many fish will only get to about 2/3rds max of their wild listed size in captivity. There are a few that get true to size, like the niger trigger, he'll really does top out at a foot. Most people exaggerate or basically out right lie about size. But a queen I would recommend against. I was actually going to warn against the Holacanthus genus, they are really next level in size and aggression.

 

[Gp!]

@lion king

Curious if a tank of this size is set up for it - say one or two caves per lion - how many do you think could probably be kept as lion reef

 

[lion king]

@lion king

Curious if a tank of this size is set up for it - say one or two caves peovidr lion - how many do you think could probably be kept as lion reef

It really depends on what else you what focused in the tank, if you take a look at the pic of my tank above, you'll see the volitan dominate the landscape of a 210g. In a 300g you could do 2 volitans and that would surely dominate, they will get 12" x 12" with their wingspans, the male volitans with maybe a 14" wingspan. Providing more caves than lions and at least 2 choices for a single lion. I also create a cliff structure through the center of the tank to give perching space on the front and back. I have never kept multiple volitans but have kept multiple different species of dwarf and medium bodied lions. When they mature there does seem to be angst between the males; somewhat between different species, but somewhat vicious between same species. Today lions seem to be difficult to keep longterm and I don't see very many people keeping them to maturity. I've seen younger volitans living in groups but would be curious if you got multiple males when they mature, how they would act. Sexing most lions is kind of a guessing game, but you really couldn't guess with a volitan until they are about at least 7". If I were to do a lions tank in a 300g, theoretically you could keep about 5 volitans, but you would have to be prepared when they mature for any vicious male to male angst, Vertical perching real estate is just as important as caves. In a 300g you likely couldn't build more than 3 or 4 adequate sized caves, When younger I've seen them hanging in caves together like a bunch of bats. As they mature they seem to perch more out in the open than hanging in a cave. Over time my volitans never used their caves anymore unless p'd off or at the end to die.

 

[nldemo]

Today lions seem to be difficult to keep longterm and I don't see very many people keeping them to maturity.

From what I understood, the most difficult part was weaning them on to frozen foods.

I should take another video of my tank to show off the rock work. It's not amazing, but I think it would be plenty of spots for a couple lions. I couldn't see 5, but maaybe 4 mid sized ones.

 

[lion king]

From what I understood, the most difficult part was weening them on to frozen foods.

I should take another video of my tank to show off the rock work. It's not amazing, but I think it would be plenty of spots for a couple lions. I couldn't see 5, but maaybe 4 mid sized ones.

Actually the problem is " weaning to dead foods". The dead foods lions are being fed lead to a nutritional defiencency and premature death. Volitans are more acceptable to eating a variety dead foods, and if the proper dead foods are fed, they can live a long life. These foods need to include shells and bone, fatty fish, and a very limited amount of any foods containing thiaminese. Supplementation with efa's, amino acids, and a multi vit may help as well. Even with these foods without the live gut flora from live foods their immune systems still may not be strong enough if they are faced with a bacterial attack.

The problem comes when people fall into feeding krill and silversides, Hikari brand silversides is the only brand I recommend, because they use a variety if fish that do not contain thiaminese. Krill contains a hugh amount of thiaminese, and shrimp to a lesser degree. Shrimp should only comprimise a smaller percentage of the overall diet, and it should be shell on. Thiaminese binds vitamin B1 which causes lockjaw among other complications.

They never had the chunky predator diets like LRS and Rods in my early years keeping lions, perhaps the predator packs with enrichments would be a good staple. I would also add Hikari silversides and shell on shrimp for shells and bones. The fresher the better. I used to feed salmon, tuna, squid, octopus, shell on shrimp, and Hikari silversides to my volitans; and 10 years was to be expected if not longer. They live 10 ton15 years in the wild. I feed my smaller lion species and scorps live foods, a combination of mollies and ghosties, and guppies for the smallest ones. The live food is hands down better and in the end to feed the proper dead foods, fresh if possible, can be just as expensive, and a bigger pita.

Back in the day we used to keep lions 5 plus years on rosies and goldish, today people can not even keep them 2 years, because on an inadaquate dead diet.

 

[nldemo]

I feed my smaller lion species and scorps live foods, a combination of mollies and ghosties, and guppies for the smallest ones. The live food is hands down better and in the end to feed the proper dead foods, fresh if possible, can be just as expensive, and a bigger pita.

I thought in Dr Marini's book he mentioned that mollies and guppies were fine for a treat but not healthy in the long run. Maybe the fat content was too high, or something like that. I plan to re-read it prior to buying my first lion, but I do appreciate hearing your experience as well.