LIVE CAUGHT FISHES ARE COMING FOR NASTY INFECTED SUPPLIERS.

[riosouza]

Fishes nowadays are coming from the suppliers more infected with stronger diseases than ever.
On top of that, fish farming has no zero regulations, hygiene or decent care for the poor little animals, only for money.
The stores are greedy profiting average 300-400% reselling the fishes, while many do not even offer the lame 15 days warranty for a fish that requires at least 4 weeks on QT.
Fishes can incubate certain diseases up to six months without showing any signs of illness. Then few months down the road out of the blue, the immune system of the fish incubating the disease goes down or cycles, boom, it crashes your entire beautiful and hard-worked DT.

The video below was shared after my DT crashed and wiped out all my 17 fishes to Velvet.
My fishes were in QT due to ICH for 28 days on Copper at 2.3ppm all the time. After 4 week, did 90% WC and started Prazipro+Metro. Two day later lost a clown, and signs of Velvet on the my beautiful Powder Brown. Since the Velvet was caught at early stage, I did another 90% WC and immediately put them back on copper ramping up to 2.35ppm within 3-4 hours. No hope, every day there was a batch of dead fishes. That's it, enough is enough. I need a break from i, a long period or for good.

 

[Humblefish]

I'm very sorry this happened to you. If velvet did survive 28 days in Copper at 2.3ppm, then that would mean "copper resistant velvet" is a real thing. Probably due to wholesalers running sub therapeutic copper for many years now.

I am working on a new treatment for velvet and other diseases (hydrogen peroxide), but it will be many months before I can get back to testing and confirm efficacy. However, I'm sure once it gets out the wholesalers will find a way to subvert the treatment and create H2O2 resistant pathogens. But at least it should be many years before that happens.

In the meanwhile, I would look into Chloroquine for those concerned about using copper: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

To be safe, I would dose Chloroquine in a sterile QT (no biofilter) to limit the possibility of the medication being degraded and dropping below therapeutic.

 

[Reef AquaCult]

Fishes nowadays are coming from the suppliers more infected with stronger diseases than ever.
On top of that, fish farming has no zero regulations, hygiene or decent care for the poor little animals, only for money.
The stores are greedy profiting average 300-400% reselling the fishes, while many do not even offer the lame 15 days warranty for a fish that requires at least 4 weeks on QT.
Fishes can incubate certain diseases up to six months without showing any signs of illness. Then few months down the road out of the blue, the immune system of the fish incubating the disease goes down or cycles, boom, it crashes your entire beautiful and hard-worked DT.

The video below was shared after my DT crashed and wiped out all my 17 fishes to Velvet.
My fishes were in QT due to ICH for 28 days on Copper at 2.3ppm all the time. After 4 week, did 90% WC and started Prazipro+Metro. Two day later lost a clown, and signs of Velvet on the my beautiful Powder Brown. Since the Velvet was caught at early stage, I did another 90% WC and immediately put them back on copper ramping up to 2.35ppm within 3-4 hours. No hope, every day there was a batch of dead fishes. That's it, enough is enough. I need a break from i, a long period or for good.

I agree. I got back into reefing recently after many years away, well just having some clownfish. Now, Diseased fish coming from all LFS in my area. All running subtherapeutic copper levels. Fish look ok in store, but once taken home they quickly deteriorate unless immediately placed into copper. I believe the hobby is in a sad state. Poorly cared for animals from collection to the hobbyist, many of whom don’t quarantine at home. LFS employees don’t know or care where the fish come from. They also don’t know what type of copper or what level the copper is at. Asking a LFS owner he was shady about what meds he uses.

I’ve had much better luck recently getting fish direct from ORA Aquacultured animals. I don’t believe they’re kept in copper and they arrive healthy and vigorous. I’m absolutely sticking to animals with known origins from here on. I don’t want fish from cheap indo sources from unreliable wholesalers. If the LFS is shady about origin then I decline. It’s too bad, very frustrating as a hobbyist and bad for the animals. I honestly don’t want a fish that has touched the LFS water. Sure, I QT at home but to make the hobby sustainable this should be an LFS responsibility. People just want to buy and sell cheap fish and don’t care. Luckily I recently found a Humblefish partner in my area to get fish from.

 

[Mellotang]

I wonder if people knew the mortality rates at the wholesale Operation upon receiving fish they would change their mind about keeping fish from the ocean in glass boxes? fish shipped with as little water as possible to save weight results in tons of stress and DOA

It’s inhumane!

And look at all That plastic and styrofoam!

This industry is horrible for the environment

Stick to locally sourced aquaculture coral!!

 

[S2G]

 

[riosouza]

I agree. I got back into reefing recently after many years away, well just having some clownfish. Now, Diseased fish coming from all LFS in my area. All running subtherapeutic copper levels. Fish look ok in store, but once taken home they quickly deteriorate unless immediately placed into copper. I believe the hobby is in a sad state. Poorly cared for animals from collection to the hobbyist, many of whom don’t quarantine at home. LFS employees don’t know or care where the fish come from. They also don’t know what type of copper or what level the copper is at. Asking a LFS owner he was shady about what meds he uses.

I’ve had much better luck recently getting fish direct from ORA Aquacultured animals. I don’t believe they’re kept in copper and they arrive healthy and vigorous. I’m absolutely sticking to animals with known origins from here on. I don’t want fish from cheap indo sources from unreliable wholesalers. If the LFS is shady about origin then I decline. It’s too bad, very frustrating as a hobbyist and bad for the animals. I honestly don’t want a fish that has touched the LFS water. Sure, I QT at home but to make the hobby sustainable this should be an LFS responsibility. People just want to buy and sell cheap fish and don’t care. Luckily I recently found a Humblefish partner in my area to get fish from.

I am with you 100%, made my mistake promoting this type of disgrace to the nature. They are as bad if not worse than do-mill owners.
I asked the owner of one of our LFS: You guys might loose lots of money with fish's death right?
The owner replied: " Not really, for every fish we sell we can still break even if 3 fishes die in store"
Besides, we have all dead fishes replaced by the supplier, we sell 30 days extended warranty to our customers" .
"Interesting" was my reply.

 

[Humblefish]

I wonder if people knew the mortality rates at the wholesale Operation upon receiving fish they would change their mind about keeping fish from the ocean in glass boxes? fish shipped with as little water as possible to save weight results in tons of stress and DOA

I've thought about this problem a lot, searching for a practical solution. It's unreasonable to expect wholesalers to provide disease-free fish... however, cleaning up their operations a little would go a long way. Two challenges to overcome:

1. People like you, me and a ton of other hobbyists who care about ethical fishkeeping don't matter to the industry.
2. People who are in a position to exert influence do care (somewhat), but they aren't going to cause waves and bite the hand that feeds them. For better or for worse, the good & bad aspects of the aquarium industry are all in bed together.

So, where does that leave us? Two possible outcomes:

1. Eventually the hobby is banned or regulated which diminishes it's viability.
2. Continues unabated for at least the near future. Nothing really changes.

Captive breeding should eventually rein in fish diseases; however just walk over to Petco's freshwater fish section and tell me what you see.

 

[MombasaLionfish]

Fishes nowadays are coming from the suppliers more infected with stronger diseases than ever.
On top of that, fish farming has no zero regulations, hygiene or decent care for the poor little animals, only for money.
The stores are greedy profiting average 300-400% reselling the fishes, while many do not even offer the lame 15 days warranty for a fish that requires at least 4 weeks on QT.
Fishes can incubate certain diseases up to six months without showing any signs of illness. Then few months down the road out of the blue, the immune system of the fish incubating the disease goes down or cycles, boom, it crashes your entire beautiful and hard-worked DT.

The video below was shared after my DT crashed and wiped out all my 17 fishes to Velvet.
My fishes were in QT due to ICH for 28 days on Copper at 2.3ppm all the time. After 4 week, did 90% WC and started Prazipro+Metro. Two day later lost a clown, and signs of Velvet on the my beautiful Powder Brown. Since the Velvet was caught at early stage, I did another 90% WC and immediately put them back on copper ramping up to 2.35ppm within 3-4 hours. No hope, every day there was a batch of dead fishes. That's it, enough is enough. I need a break from i, a long period or for good.

That video is so sad I did not know they did that.

 

[riosouza]

That video is so sad I did not know they did that.

Sad indeed. That's why I decided to share it too...

 

[Gareth elliott]

Question the uptick in fish disease could this also be attributed to environmental causes?

Examples
amphibian chytrid fungus. 20 years ago didnt exist. Fast forward to today and now hobbyists have to test their own frogs, decimated populations across the planet.
Cancer is tazmain devils, for 70,000 years DFTD never existed from 1990-2008 reduced their population enough to be declared endangered. Is still the only communicable form of cancer. Imagine drinking from a water fountain and instead of catching mono you catch cancer.

Some background changes, emergence of life free zones in the ocean. Up until recently there were no reports these ever existed.
Large scale fish kills for the last 50 years.

I know its easy to blame the wholesalers, but has that much changed in the industry tbh?
Could an environmental source be causing increased infection rates in the wild, and the effects of these infections compounded by the small vessels the fish are kept in?

 

[madweazl]

I am with you 100%, made my mistake promoting this type of disgrace to the nature. They are as bad if not worse than do-mill owners.
I asked the owner of one of our LFS: You guys might loose lots of money with fish's death right?
The owner replied: " Not really, for every fish we sell we can still break even if 3 fishes die in store"
Besides, we have all dead fishes replaced by the supplier, we sell 30 days extended warranty to our customers" .
"Interesting" was my reply.

I've been out of the industry 20+ years now but there was never a replacement guarantee from the wholesaler. We also couldnt break even if 3 died to the 1 we sold (would have been 1 to 1).

 

[psionicdragon]

not sure how that clip really say anything as it is being taken out of context out of a longer video

 

[Marc2952]

Fishes nowadays are coming from the suppliers more infected with stronger diseases than ever.
On top of that, fish farming has no zero regulations, hygiene or decent care for the poor little animals, only for money.
The stores are greedy profiting average 300-400% reselling the fishes, while many do not even offer the lame 15 days warranty for a fish that requires at least 4 weeks on QT.
Fishes can incubate certain diseases up to six months without showing any signs of illness. Then few months down the road out of the blue, the immune system of the fish incubating the disease goes down or cycles, boom, it crashes your entire beautiful and hard-worked DT.

The video below was shared after my DT crashed and wiped out all my 17 fishes to Velvet.
My fishes were in QT due to ICH for 28 days on Copper at 2.3ppm all the time. After 4 week, did 90% WC and started Prazipro+Metro. Two day later lost a clown, and signs of Velvet on the my beautiful Powder Brown. Since the Velvet was caught at early stage, I did another 90% WC and immediately put them back on copper ramping up to 2.35ppm within 3-4 hours. No hope, every day there was a batch of dead fishes. That's it, enough is enough. I need a break from i, a long period or for good.

What copper was you using? I thought the therapeutic level was 0.4 to 0.5 for cupramine atleast.

 

[Humblefish]

I know its easy to blame the wholesalers, but has that much changed in the industry tbh?
Could an environmental source be causing increased infection rates in the wild, and the effects of these infections compounded by the small vessels the fish are kept in?

In Europe, diseases are not as big of a problem because wholesalers utilize a sterilization program. This eliminates varying pathogens from building up, copper resistant parasites, etc. The downside is when systems don't house fish that cuts into profit margins. I also don't believe subtherapeutic copper is widely practiced in Europe, and both retailers & wholesalers are subject to govt. regulations/inspection.

In the USA, the aquarium industry (and especially the live fish trade) is like the wild, wild west. One large wholesaler freely admitted to me that they haven't sterilized jack since the early 1990s. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a big fan of govt. regulation. However, if fish (and the other animals we keep) were given the same basic protections that dogs & cats receive then maybe the situation would improve. Because human decency isn't going to prevail in this situation unless there are consequences.

 

[S2G]

In Europe, diseases are not as big of a problem because wholesalers utilize a sterilization program. This eliminates varying pathogens from building up, copper resistant parasites, etc. The downside is when systems don't house fish that cuts into profit margins. I also don't believe subtherapeutic copper is widely practiced in Europe, and both retailers & wholesalers are subject to govt. regulations/inspection.

In the USA, the aquarium industry (and especially the live fish trade) is like the wild, wild west. One large wholesaler freely admitted to me that they haven't sterilized jack since the early 1990s. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a big fan of govt. regulation. However, if fish (and the other animals we keep) were given the same basic protections that dogs & cats receive then maybe the situation would improve. Because human decency isn't going to prevail in this situation unless there are consequences.

Well said. Too much of anything is usually bad.

I'm very grateful of my local shop. I guess I'm spoiled

 

[PPPPPP42]

So how does one put their money where their mouth is on this issue?

Obviously the first choice would be aquacultured fish (and coral). Whats a good list of breeder suppliers that have been good about keeping disease down and treating the livestock well? I thought I saw ORA mentioned though I got the impression they just sell to dealers.

For stuff that has to be imported because it isn't being bred by anyone domestically are there really any good choices?

Waiting for legislation is a joke, if you keep buying they will just keep doing things the same way.
But just stopping buying isn't a reliable way to tell them what you actually think either. Things would likely get worse as they tighten the belt even more.

 

[MrPike]

The idea that retailer LFS make a ton of profit on fish is a joke, even at 400 percent markup. They break even, or make a tiny profit at best. The fish are a necessary evil to get people to your store where you can sell them things you actually make money on.

Do you know any local fish store owners who are wealthy?

 

[Reef AquaCult]

You can get ORA direct shipments by purchasing on LiveAquaria I know some people have noted LA quality decreasing recently but the ORA animals are great. Shipped from ORA Florida facility. I’ve gotten cardinals, corals, blennys all good condition.

So how does one put their money where their mouth is on this issue?

Obviously the first choice would be aquacultured fish (and coral). Whats a good list of breeder suppliers that have been good about keeping disease down and treating the livestock well? I thought I saw ORA mentioned though I got the impression they just sell to dealers.

For stuff that has to be imported because it isn't being bred by anyone domestically are there really any good choices?

Waiting for legislation is a joke, if you keep buying they will just keep doing things the same way.
But just stopping buying isn't a reliable way to tell them what you actually think either. Things would likely get worse as they tighten the belt even more.

 

[DaneGer21]

not sure how that clip really say anything as it is being taken out of context out of a longer video

Context or not. Sounds like you somewhat agree with the displayed practices.

I hope I’m wrong...

 

[riosouza]

What copper was you using? I thought the therapeutic level was 0.4 to 0.5 for cupramine atleast.

Copper Power @ 2.3ppm initially to treat ICH for 4 weeks. I had bad experience using Cupramine on some fishes, mainly on Hypo.
After 20 days I have no signs of ICH, I decide to stretch up to 28 days just in case. At the end of 28 days, I did 90% WC and started Prazipro+Metro, but 2 days later many of my fishes started scratching themselves at the bottom of the tank. That's when I noticed very little of the Velvet on my Powder Brown, Black white clown. I immediately dumped the water and went back to Copper Power @ therapeutical level within the same day.