LIVE CAUGHT FISHES ARE COMING FOR NASTY INFECTED SUPPLIERS.

Humblefish

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Copper Power @ 2.3ppm initially to treat ICH for 4 weeks. I had bad experience using Cupramine on some fishes, mainly on Hypo.
I've seen anecdotal accounts of velvet surviving 0.6 ppm Cupramine :(

If this trend continues, these wholesalers have really F'd us good
 

psionicdragon

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Context or not. Sounds like you somewhat agree with the displayed practices.

I hope I’m wrong...
I do disagree on using a selective clip out a whole video to make a point when the video was intended to show something else. But not saying the OP is doing that as he mentioned he was referred to it. Its very similar to a phenomenon called "Selective Hearing" or "Media Reporting". So yes, context does make everything.

"Sounds like you somewhat agree" is inferring what you believe onto what I am writing. I neither disagree or agree with how things are done. But unless you have lived in the shoes that those people are living in, then showing the "mightier than thou" attitude by picking their condition is so first world country. Maybe join the peace corps and build some stuff for them?

You could also say that the meat industry is barbaric and things need to change. The employees need better training yada yada yada. But then maybe the employees are from an impoverish area and the food processing plant and slaughter house is barely making enough to survive but making enough to make sure their employees can make something to live?

I agree with the OP that a lot of live stocks have been coming in poorly. Unfortunately, bacteria and parasites do mutate and usual methods may not work. I have even posted a lot of issues that I had in the past as I am ALWAYS in the same boat as the OP because I purchase on a larger scale than the average.
 

squampton

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I am setting up a 15 gallon nano and seriously considering having no fish in it, just some corals and shrimp and hermits and such. I am in Canada where medications including copper has been banned so its very difficult to even treat fish these days, not even sure its worth risking fish anymore, the fish coming into the stores look less and less healthy every year it seems.

Even freshwater I haven't seen so many sick fish in stores in years, but now stores can't treat their tanks even, we are pretty much limited to the snake oil type remedies.
 

DaneGer21

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I do disagree on using a selective clip out a whole video to make a point when the video was intended to show something else. But not saying the OP is doing that as he mentioned he was referred to it. Its very similar to a phenomenon called "Selective Hearing" or "Media Reporting". So yes, context does make everything.

"Sounds like you somewhat agree" is inferring what you believe onto what I am writing. I neither disagree or agree with how things are done. But unless you have lived in the shoes that those people are living in, then showing the "mightier than thou" attitude by picking their condition is so first world country. Maybe join the peace corps and build some stuff for them?

You could also say that the meat industry is barbaric and things need to change. The employees need better training yada yada yada. But then maybe the employees are from an impoverish area and the food processing plant and slaughter house is barely making enough to survive but making enough to make sure their employees can make something to live?

I agree with the OP that a lot of live stocks have been coming in poorly. Unfortunately, bacteria and parasites do mutate and usual methods may not work. I have even posted a lot of issues that I had in the past as I am ALWAYS in the same boat as the OP because I purchase on a larger scale than the average.
Oh brother... but it’s ok for you to assume I was judging people? As for the people, I could give two flyin’ Whatever’s, but the WAY they are doing it, clean crap up, pick up after yourself... it’s not hard to treat things humane...

What I’m really saying, have some respect, for yourself, the animals, and the customers.

Picking up trash versus essentially sitting on it is not saying I’m all high and mighty.
 
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Mellotang

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I think my fish might have contracted Wuhan Corona!! They are in quarantine but I exposed them to some other fish so I’m not sure what’s going to happen...

Seriously though, I enjoy this hobby, and have moved my fair share of fish and it’s always weighed heavy on my mind taking the fish from the ocean and putting them in boxes. Imagine you normally swim wherever you want, healthy n free, eating your ideal diet. Then some human comes along and decides to put you in jail with other inmates who could be sick or you might not get along with. It’s pretty wicked when you think about it. I’m surprised it goes on and I guess it’s a testament to greed and the almighty dollar.

Like I said im guilty of supporting the industry and am in no way innocent, but it needs to change.

At least coral doesn’t have a brain.

Nothing worse than seeing a fish swim back n forth against the glass in the same patterns or doing loops around vortechs like it’s working out in the yard trying to get jacked to hold its own in the jail!

Fortunately one of my Local wholesalers closed recently because it was one worst most inhumane operations I have ever seen.

Even when I tried to save some fish from there my mortality rate was almost 100%
Industrial grade copper that has no business in aquariums and salinity so low it might as well be fresh water. So messed up, glad they are gone!
The industry should have stricter regulations.

We have a responsibility to the fish!

Let’s try and be more responsible with our decisions and buy aquaculture when possible.
 

piranhaman00

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Copper Power @ 2.3ppm initially to treat ICH for 4 weeks. I had bad experience using Cupramine on some fishes, mainly on Hypo.
After 20 days I have no signs of ICH, I decide to stretch up to 28 days just in case. At the end of 28 days, I did 90% WC and started Prazipro+Metro, but 2 days later many of my fishes started scratching themselves at the bottom of the tank. That's when I noticed very little of the Velvet on my Powder Brown, Black white clown. I immediately dumped the water and went back to Copper Power @ therapeutical level within the same day.
Well this is your problem right here. You kept that fish at therapeutic levels for 28 days and then just did a huge water change. IMO, its pretty obvious that there were still eggs present in the tank that did not hatch yet. After you did the large water change the eggs hatched and were able to survive because you were no longer at therapeutic levels of copper and infected your fish. A transfer to a sterile tank would have solved this issue.

The fact that there were no signs during the first 28 days of treatment proves that they were not resistant to the copper, it was in fact working properly. The treatment just did not extend long enough to kill every parasite.
 

Humblefish

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Well this is your problem right here. You kept that fish at therapeutic levels for 28 days and then just did a huge water change. IMO, its pretty obvious that there were still eggs present in the tank that did not hatch yet. After you did the large water change the eggs hatched and were able to survive because you were no longer at therapeutic levels of copper and infected your fish. A transfer to a sterile tank would have solved this issue.

The fact that there were no signs during the first 28 days of treatment proves that they were not resistant to the copper, it was in fact working properly. The treatment just did not extend long enough to kill every parasite.
This would be applicable to Ich (although most strains die out in therapeutic copper/Chloroquine within 4 weeks), but Velvet can only survive in therapeutic copper/Chloroquine for 3 weeks MAX. At least that has always been the rule of thumb... :confused:

However, if "copper resistant velvet" is a real thing then all bets are off.
 

piranhaman00

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This would be applicable to Ich (although most strains die out in therapeutic copper/Chloroquine within 4 weeks), but Velvet can only survive in therapeutic copper/Chloroquine for 3 weeks MAX. At least that has always been the rule of thumb... :confused:

However, if "copper resistant velvet" is a real thing then all bets are off.
Im much more inclined to believe that the 3 weeks max is not as accurate as once though. I did see that velvet has been surviving higher and higher [Cu] from some users.

I also cant see the video, are we sure its velvet and not ich?
 
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riosouza

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Well this is your problem right here. You kept that fish at therapeutic levels for 28 days and then just did a huge water change. IMO, its pretty obvious that there were still eggs present in the tank that did not hatch yet. After you did the large water change the eggs hatched and were able to survive because you were no longer at therapeutic levels of copper and infected your fish. A transfer to a sterile tank would have solved this issue.

The fact that there were no signs during the first 28 days of treatment proves that they were not resistant to the copper, it was in fact working properly. The treatment just did not extend long enough to kill every parasite.
Still having parasites in the tank was an not a questionable fact, that part we all guessed and was not my point.
My point was, that I should not have any tomonts or trophonts either for ICH or Velvelt after 28 days on @2.3ppm, which has nothing to do with water change to start a second phase of the quarantine with Prazipro-Metro, procedure which is commonly done by many.
As Humblefish mentioned before, fish suppliers are keeping the fishes on sub-therapeutic copper levels, and I agree 120%. The possible reason might be to reduce fish losses during the quaratine one even on store display, but also not killing the parasites either, which instead giving the parasites the ability to develop resistance against copper.
If I ever decide to buy fish from any local store again, I will only buy the fishes that are either on a tank with corals or take my Hanna copper checker with me.
 
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Humblefish

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My point was, that I should not have any tomonts or trophonts either for ICH or Velvelt after 28 days on @2.3ppm, which has nothing to do with water change to start a second phase of the quarantine with Prazipro-Metro, procedure which is commonly done by many.
You are correct about velvet, but as you will see from the table below there was at least one instance where tomonts were viable for up to 35 days.

Table1_zpsfwf5goxj.jpg
 
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riosouza

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Here are some pictures in case if someone else is curious if the deaths are caused by ICH or Amyloodinium.
I dissected some of the dead fish and put under the microscope to see what caused their death.
The images from the fins were more detailed.

20200212_190844.jpg 20200212_191822.jpg 20200212_191018.jpg
 

Humblefish

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^^ In addition, tomonts from the "Colorni, 1985" study lasted for up to 28 days. This is after the trophonts had spent 3-7 days feeding on the fish + you have to consider up to 18 hours for the protomont to encyst (which becomes a tomont.)

Also not included in the above table is the infamous "72 day variant" which was cultivated in 1997 by Colorni and Burgess.
 

Humblefish

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Here are some pictures in case if someone else is curious if the deaths are caused by ICH or Amyloodinium.
I dissected some of the dead fish and put under the microscope to see what caused their death.
The images from the fins were more detailed.

20200212_190844.jpg 20200212_191822.jpg 20200212_191018.jpg
Possibly some velvet trophonts, but they look damaged/not viable.
 

piranhaman00

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Still having parasites in the tank was an not a questionable fact, that part we all guessed and was not my point.
My point was, that I should not have any tomonts or trophonts either for ICH or Velvelt after 28 days on @2.3ppm, which has nothing to do with water change to start a second phase of the quarantine with Prazipro-Metro, procedure which is commonly done by many.
But you did as evident by your findings. You think its a coincidence the fish showed symptoms only after you dropped your copper level?

There is absolutely, without a doubt the possibly of a novel species of ich/velvet that has a longer time in the egg stage. This thread has everything do with that. If you would have kept them at therapeutic copper for longer or transferred you would not have had issues. As @Humblefish chart shows there is a variety of species with drastically different life cycles.

I understand the point of this thread is detailing how sub levels are possibly giving resistance to copper, but there is no proof of that here.
 

Humblefish

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