"Live Rock Per Gallon Rule" - Under, Over or Just Right?

Is this "Live Rock Per Gallon" rule relevant anymore?

  • YES

    Votes: 88 17.6%
  • NO

    Votes: 327 65.5%
  • Yes and No (please explain in the thread)

    Votes: 66 13.2%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 18 3.6%

  • Total voters
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vlangel

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My sentiments but I have had a 300 gallon display. Going smaller to much time and expense for the bigger displays. Use to think I wanted 500- 1000 gallon display now I am going to be happy with a 65 gallon display smallest saltwater tank I will have owned
I also had somewhat of a bigger tank and downsized to a 56 gallon DT about 4 + years ago. I do still have a 30 gallon fuge and 20 gallon sump hooked up to it but this smaller tank is perfect and I am not wanting the work or expense of a bigger system anymore. The smaller tank is home to 16 fish and I am content with that. I do have a lot of rock to give those fish adequate territory space and I do feed heavily to keep 'hangry' behaviors at a mimimal.
 

Belgian Anthias

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I said no, it's not relevent just as the typewriter is no longer relevent to people. Are there aspects of the typewriter still around? Yes, definitely, we have keyboards that echo the layout of letters on the good old typewriter. And we have the option to print to paper if we want. That's about all that's the same, but there's aspects still relevent. As many others before me have said, there's technological advances in biofiltration. We understand the needs of our marine environments better than ever. We have "hobby grade" test kits that are probably more accurate than they ever have been to tell us if filtration isn't working.

Advances in bacterial strains, efficient export mechanisms (advanced skimmers, advanced algae turf scrubbers) and even advances in sump designs, roller mats, etc all contribute to how much rock a person needs.

I would say if anything we need an equation that calculates x amount of lbs of rock. And the variables that determine it include:
1.) Size of tank
2.) size of sump.
3.) Roller mat yes/ no?
4.) Socks yes / no?
5.) Skimmer yes / no
6. If yes to skimmer rating of skimmer.
7. algae turf scrubber yes / no?
8. If yes to ATS - some size rating of the ats.
9. Refugium yes / no?
10. Number of fish planned?
11. other factors yes / no.

Then, based some convuluted equation, you can say, you should have x lbs of rock. Now, that said, Go with what looks nice for creating the habitat you want (plenty of hiding places.

Any pics of multiple sumps used. Like a live rock sump or a sump dedicated to a couple brightwell bricks and then a sump dedicated to equipment all linked together?
This assumes " live rock" has a certain filtration capacity. Does it? Can it be determined? Compared to base rock?

If it comes to filtration capacity a small biofilter will be many times more efficient and, moreover, the filtration capacity can be adjusted at any time. The tank can easily be conditioned before another fish is introduced and the bioload is increased, anticipating what is coming. This is called "active aquarium management", AAM. One does not need "live rock" for managing a reef aquarium. It may be a source of pollution.
Corals are real "live rock" and will introduce essential diversity with their coral holobiont, as do all other organisms introduced in the tank. So-called "live rock" will for sure introduce competitors for the coral holobiont.

What is best to be introduced first, the coral holobiont or so-called " live rock"?

Advances in bacterial strains? New technology gives us more knowledge about what strains of bacteria are responsible for certain processes, but they are still the same bacteria who did the same work in the past. Nothing has changed, it is still about the balance between producers and reducers and keep DOC as low as possible for healthy corals. One must be aware of a lot of so-called advanced technics are only needed because one is using it. Some are responsible for creating an imbalance which then has to be corrected using another advanced device or technics.
It has been shown modern advanced skimmers are no better for removing DOC as a simple counter-current skimmer from the seventies having the correct size. The most advanced skimmers will only remove +- 30% of DOC and do this very selective. ref: MB CMF De Haes 2017
 

Paul B

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I didn't weigh my rock because I collected all of it in the sea but I believe you should have as much rock as you can fit while leaving plenty of room for fish to hide so it should be in a kind of lace work.

Not just for filtration or water conditions but for food and fish health. Many fish like copperbands, randalls gobies, mandarins, 6 line wrasses and the majority of fish we keep need or like to hunt. In a bare tank or something with very little rocks it isn't easy. Except for the copperband I don't have to feed most of my fish as they have plenty of places to find food. Copepods are a very important part of the food chain and even if you have fish that don't eat them, they are important.

Hiding where we can't see the fish is also very important for fish health and IMO one of the reasons for a disease forum. If we can see the fish, they can see us, and they don't like us even if we consider ourselves very good looking. ;Meh

My own tank is loaded with rock but very little of it actually touches the gravel on the bottom. I can see through many places right through to the back and fish can traverse the many tunnels and caves and keep out of sight.
 

Bruce Burnett

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I didn't weigh my rock because I collected all of it in the sea but I believe you should have as much rock as you can fit while leaving plenty of room for fish to hide so it should be in a kind of lace work.

Not just for filtration or water conditions but for food and fish health. Many fish like copperbands, randalls gobies, mandarins, 6 line wrasses and the majority of fish we keep need or like to hunt. In a bare tank or something with very little rocks it isn't easy. Except for the copperband I don't have to feed most of my fish as they have plenty of places to find food. Copepods are a very important part of the food chain and even if you have fish that don't eat them, they are important.

Hiding where we can't see the fish is also very important for fish health and IMO one of the reasons for a disease forum. If we can see the fish, they can see us, and they don't like us even if we consider ourselves very good looking. ;Meh

My own tank is loaded with rock but very little of it actually touches the gravel on the bottom. I can see through many places right through to the back and fish can traverse the many tunnels and caves and keep out of sight.
I agree when you have enough rock it can be hard to see the fish. They are more comfortable and less aggressive behavior. I have found if you keep your tank in an active room the fish come out more. When strangers come into the room they hide. So it depends on what you want for a display a tank full of Acropora frags with few fish, a mixed coral tank, a fish only or a tank with mixed corals not just frags and some fish. See a lot of displays with frags and people seem proud to have hundreds of frags in their display, they get bored watching them grow into colonies. I know some grow their frags out to sell more frags. My last conversation with my son was he was bored because his coral has grown and no more room for new corals or fish and not much maintenance. Told him that means success, start another tank..
 

Flzak

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I go for about 10% of net water. I know the skimmers are getting better and better to export nutriens but in my opinion you need a certan amount of surface for nitrasfing bacteria to help brake down nutriens as well
 

ReefRxSWFL

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Couldn’t agree more.

The use of imitation ‘live’ rock without adding any true live rock from an established tank or from someone like TBS is what I believe is the missing equation for most new tanks. I also believe this leads to the ugly stage that everyone now says is normal. When I started this hobby you used under gravel filters and got a culture from the LFS of their gravel to seed the bacteria in your tank - worked like a charm. When I went to reefs it was all true live rock.

After a 10 year hiatus from the hobby when I came back it was all imitation ‘live’ rock. I used 80lbs of the imitation stuff and got 10lbs of established rock from a friends tank. I never had the ‘normal’ ugly stage. So regardless of how much rock you use it’s the biodiversity that is missing when people are starting their tanks - ask Ryan from BRS and what he missed about the WWC method.

I just don’t think adding in ammonia and ‘feeding’ your tank gets you to a proper cycle and it likely contributes to the ‘normal’ ugly stage. Also god forbid you add fish when cycling lol. I did all of these things and was told I’d get hitchhikers on the live rock and the fish would die and I’d still go through a ‘normal’ ugly stage. None of that happened.

Just my opinion.
 

ReefRxSWFL

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Couldn’t agree more.

The use of imitation ‘live’ rock without adding any true live rock from an established tank or from someone like TBS is what I believe is the missing equation for most new tanks. I also believe this leads to the ugly stage that everyone now says is normal. When I started this hobby you used under gravel filters and got a culture from the LFS of their gravel to seed the bacteria in your tank - worked like a charm. When I went to reefs it was all true live rock.

After a 10 year hiatus from the hobby when I came back it was all imitation ‘live’ rock. I used 80lbs of the imitation stuff and got 10lbs of established rock from a friends tank. I never had the ‘normal’ ugly stage. So regardless of how much rock you use it’s the biodiversity that is missing when people are starting their tanks - ask Ryan from BRS and what he missed about the WWC method.

I just don’t think adding in ammonia and ‘feeding’ your tank gets you to a proper cycle and it likely contributes to the ‘normal’ ugly stage. Also god forbid you add fish when cycling lol. I did all of these things and was told I’d get hitchhikers on the live rock and the fish would die and I’d still go through a ‘normal’ ugly stage. None of that happened.

Just my opinion.
last weekend, i threw together a tank with an Acrylic 25 Gallon Cube from out in my garage with a small Eshoppes sump with a Red Solo Cup of sand from my 150 display and one piece of Pukani from the sump ( about 12x8 inches ) no skimmer, no other filtration, a large pair of clowns, 2 montipora colonies, 1 Pavona colony and 1 small mushroom rock, and have been running the Kessil 360 at 100% power 50% color for 12 hours a day since Sarurday. Have full polyp extension, and have not even had a haze on the inside of the acrylic. A tank, a light, a sump, a pump = instant tank with one eatablished live rock and some established substrate.
 

guysmiley

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just started the build on a 200g system:cool: i ordered 60kg of

CaribSea Geo-Marine Florida Crushed Coral​

its up to 5.5ml grain size so the surface area is huge for bacteria, i will also be using bio blocks in sump so even more surface area, my goal is to have less rock allowing more flow and no dead spots in tank ,combining this with roller filer decent skimmer and possibly an algae scrubber i think il have a pretty clean system. so yea the need for live rock really isnt relevant in todays reef tanks
 

Jaystone777

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I think it really just depends on what you want it to look like. I like mine to look like a wall of coral similar to what you would see diving the Great Barrier Reef. Other people want it to look like a little patch of coral that you would see snorkeling in the Philippines. It's all about aesthetics.
 

LiverockRocks

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Some of our customers prefer traditional rock walls, some mountainous islands, some a live rock labyrinth and others minimal rock patches; whatever works for your eyes.

TBS continues to recommend 2lbs per gallon for optimal performance. This doesn't mean all rock needs to be placed in the display. Sump chambers, refugiums, canister filters, cryptic zones, filter chambers and yes, some folks even place live rock rubble in their overflows.

Real live rock from the ocean not only provides a natural environment for your reef inhabitants, but beneficial microorganisms like detritus eating critters and beneficial bacteria.
 

ScubaFish802

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With all the ceramics like Marine Pure and the new Polyplabs Genesis rock, I wonder if you could even get away with just some block in the sump and no rock at all these days :thinking-face:
 

Big Smelly fish

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I really don’t think it was ever relevant and was pushed by the ones harvesting and selling the rock in the 80’s. Back when it was about the rock wall in the tank. The idea of keeping corals was new and we didn’t have the filtration like we have now. Mostly drip bio ball systems.
I like having a large amount of rock in a system. Mostly in the display and then more in sump area.
 

Big Smelly fish

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Some of our customers prefer traditional rock walls, some mountainous islands, some a live rock labyrinth and others minimal rock patches; whatever works for your eyes.

TBS continues to recommend 2lbs per gallon for optimal performance. This doesn't mean all rock needs to be placed in the display. Sump chambers, refugiums, canister filters, cryptic zones, filter chambers and yes, some folks even place live rock rubble in their overflows.

Real live rock from the ocean not only provides a natural environment for your reef inhabitants, but beneficial microorganisms like detritus eating critters and beneficial bacteria.
I don’t do the rock walls nowadays but it’s still one of the best looking tanks to me. Like looking at the reef in the wild from below or the side.
 

Fishy888

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This guideline is good for someone just starting out in reefing. I agree that porous surface area is most important.

I am not a fan of fake rock. I am also not a fan of destroying reefs to get live rock. There is plenty of real rock out there now. The closest LFS has it dry. Lots of Fiji and Tonga branch rock.

Just know that if you use Tonga branch rock or Florida mined rock (which I personally consider real rock since it was at one point deposited by real corals) then you may well need 2+ lbs of live rock. On the other hand if one takes that base rock and breaks it up there will be more surface area.
 

Belgian Anthias

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I really don’t think it was ever relevant and was pushed by the ones harvesting and selling the rock in the 80’s. Back when it was about the rock wall in the tank. The idea of keeping corals was new and we didn’t have the filtration like we have now. Mostly drip bio ball systems.
I like having a large amount of rock in a system. Mostly in the display and then more in sump area.

Why do you think in the 70ties and 80ties they didn't had the filtration available now? What filtration method do you use not availble in the 60 ties and 70 ties?
 

Big Smelly fish

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Why do you think in the 70ties and 80ties they didn't had the filtration available now? What filtration method do you use not availble in the 60 ties and 70 ties?
I started in 72, it was under gravel filters with air stones in the pickup tubes and dead bleached coral as decorations. We didn’t keep corals but did try keeping things we had no business trying like anemones which slowly died because of mainly what I think was lack of proper lighting. We also weren’t using RO D I units and protein skimmers where not widely used and if they where they where insufficient.
It was early to mid 80’s when live rock because popular and the ideal of corals. We crammed as many fluorescent bulb on top of tank as would fit. The bulb a mix of daylight and Phillips actinic. Also sumps with bio ball became popular as reefing grew, equipment started getting more advance and then the internet came with bulletin boards later forum for sharing and the rest is history. Everything is so much more advance today and the reason we can do what we do today.
 

Belgian Anthias

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Life rock or a live rock? For example: http://chucksaddiction.thefishestate.net/rock.html

I do not agree with the author about everything written in the article but the article shows what it is all about.

The "live rock myth".

The filtration capacity of "a live rock " is based on growth, the growth rate of periphyton growing on the rock. It is all about available space. if one provides the space and substrate needed, the same filtration capacity can be installed without so called " life rock".
It all started when reefers where advised not to use a bio. What is the difference?
The difference is most reefers are not able to manage the filtration capacity in function of the needs and are confronted with the same problems over and over again, since a few decades. Using " live rock" did not bring a solution, on the contrary!
Filtration capacity is mainly about being able to support the carrying capacity, maintaining the bio-load, secondary it is about removing what is considered not needed , what was added but was not needed. What " live rock" can do what " a live rock" can not ?
 

Belgian Anthias

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I started in 72, it was under gravel filters with air stones in the pickup tubes and dead bleached coral as decorations. We didn’t keep corals but did try keeping things we had no business trying like anemones which slowly died because of mainly what I think was lack of proper lighting. We also weren’t using RO D I units and protein skimmers where not widely used and if they where they where insufficient.
It was early to mid 80’s when live rock because popular and the ideal of corals. We crammed as many fluorescent bulb on top of tank as would fit. The bulb a mix of daylight and Phillips actinic. Also sumps with bio ball became popular as reefing grew, equipment started getting more advance and then the internet came with bulletin boards later forum for sharing and the rest is history. Everything is so much more advance today and the reason we can do what we do today.
Skimmers, UV units, , RO, ozon, bioballs, diatom earth, bio, refuge, sump, it all was available late 60 ties. What filtration method is available now not available in the 70ties? Enough light and correct spectrum was available. What we did not have was a cheap method to measure parameters. Only pH and salinity. Corals where not commercialized and not available. Corals started to be commercialized in EU the period in Germany and other EU countries import of reef fish and invertabrates was banned or and limited , this was half the 70ties. Corals where not on the list of Cites that time. Wilkens published the use of kalkwasser in the 70 ties. Keeping corals in home aquaria in EU, it must have been late 80ties. In the US the Dutch system ( sump with bioballs) became popular late 80ties and 90ties, published in the Netherlands in 1969 (Frank De Graaf. Handboek voor het tropisch zeeaquarium. Tweede druk. A.J.G. Strengholt N.V. Amsterdam, 1969.)

Dieter Brockman, one of the driving forces behind the Berlin method, said in an interview with Roger Vitko in 2004: “The Internet is as much a curse to hobbyists as it is a blessing. It contains many false statements and ill-conceived hobbyist "experiments" that are accepted as fact.

Over the decades the available technology changed, much of this commercialized technology is only needed because it is used. A lot more is known about biological filtration , a lot of new participants and players have been isolated, but every day the same questions are asked on fora all over the world. The same issues we had in the seventies not having test kits, the same questions are asked. The use of "life rock " was not the solution, it only was responsible for marine (reef) tanks only able to support a very limited bio-load.
 

Big Smelly fish

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I agree with a lot of what’s your saying. The states where behind Germany and other countries, I knew that from the book I read back then.
I can only speak from my experience and how I remember what I witnessed as far as all the changes over the years..
lol I had to go back and see what the thread was about. The 1-2 gallon rule. I don’t think it’s relevant as I stated.
 

Paul B

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I am on a private Caribbean Island now looking out at quite a few un inhabited coral Islands each one capable of suppling enough live rock to supply every salt water hobbies in the world without making a dent.

it’s just that the infrastructure isn’t available to make it happen

they mine this stuff to build roads and houses and I doubt it is in short supply. This is a rich Island but the poor Islands would do well if they could sell rock as they are starving especially since they can’t take fish or corals any longer

it’s just a commercial commodity and it is renewable
 

Being sticky and staying connected: Have you used any reef-safe glue?

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