You have no idea who he is do you?
Long rant on Ick I guess. Can be very touchy topic.Be Warned Plus a Story!
- Thread starter Dilan Patel
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Daltrey
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Yes and anyone can give bad advice. Such as never doing water changes.
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He does water changes. Not sure what youre taking about there.
You must have him confused with Dr Sanjay.
Daltrey
Valuable Member
Yeah, my bad. I just see posts on here everyday asking what are these white spots and a day later their fish is dead. I may be new to reefing but I started a Fowlr in 1998. It just seems bad advice to tell people not to qt.
Sure an experienced hobbyist may know how to introduce diseases and be able to have their fish build up an immunity to them but most hobbyist don't.
Sure an experienced hobbyist may know how to introduce diseases and be able to have their fish build up an immunity to them but most hobbyist don't.
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I agree.
And lot of folks really don't understand the methods of successful ick management.
And it actually includes most often a qt Period.
Very very different from the dump and hope method.
Paul B
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Maybe, but in 46 years there was no need to take it down because ick and anything else is a non issue. The fish are immune and have been for decades.
Also all the paired fish are spawning and my fish only die from either old age or jumping out. Some of them are 26 years old. Can you show me a quarantined tank where all the paired fish are spawning including all the pipefish, the mandarins, watchman gobies, all the cardinals, yellow clown gobies and the bangai's. I won't count damsels like clowns because they will spawn eating newspapers, old newspapers with black and white cartoons.
Quarantined fish will never be very healthy and will always be susceptible to everything because they have no immune system. A fish, like us needs to be exposed to pathogens like bacteria, viruses and parasites all it's life to stay immune to them like mine and a few other older tanks are.
In the sea fish eat live fish every day and all those fish are loaded with parasites. A fishes immune system has no problems with parasites as it was designed to live with them as they have since Betty White was born.
A statement like Quarantining is the right thing to do is wrong. People quarantine because they have not figured out how to keep a natural, normal immune tank just like the ocean with no need to do any quarantining. Eventually we will all be able to do that because diseases as it pertains to this hobby is still in the dark ages and are cured with the exact methods we used in the 70s. Fish should never, never get sick except for the occasional headache.
Spawning mandarins
Blue devil over his nest of eggs circa 1972
Pregnant cardinal
Watchman tending eggs
Pregnant ruby red dragonette
Pregnant blue stripe.
I could go on. But the point is that if a fish is paired and not spawning, it is not very healthy. All fish in the sea spawn continousely,. some almost every day or week like these gobies with the eggs above her.
Also all the paired fish are spawning and my fish only die from either old age or jumping out. Some of them are 26 years old. Can you show me a quarantined tank where all the paired fish are spawning including all the pipefish, the mandarins, watchman gobies, all the cardinals, yellow clown gobies and the bangai's. I won't count damsels like clowns because they will spawn eating newspapers, old newspapers with black and white cartoons.
Quarantined fish will never be very healthy and will always be susceptible to everything because they have no immune system. A fish, like us needs to be exposed to pathogens like bacteria, viruses and parasites all it's life to stay immune to them like mine and a few other older tanks are.
In the sea fish eat live fish every day and all those fish are loaded with parasites. A fishes immune system has no problems with parasites as it was designed to live with them as they have since Betty White was born.
A statement like Quarantining is the right thing to do is wrong. People quarantine because they have not figured out how to keep a natural, normal immune tank just like the ocean with no need to do any quarantining. Eventually we will all be able to do that because diseases as it pertains to this hobby is still in the dark ages and are cured with the exact methods we used in the 70s. Fish should never, never get sick except for the occasional headache.
Spawning mandarins
Blue devil over his nest of eggs circa 1972
Pregnant cardinal
Watchman tending eggs
Pregnant ruby red dragonette
Pregnant blue stripe.
I could go on. But the point is that if a fish is paired and not spawning, it is not very healthy. All fish in the sea spawn continousely,. some almost every day or week like these gobies with the eggs above her.
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Paul B
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Yes, that was Sanjay. Not me.
That is correct. So if we want to learn how to be good aquarists who should we listen to? The people on the disease threads, the people with the tank crashes or the people who have learned over many years how to keep fish healthy using easier methods than quarantining. Is having healthy, spawning fish a bad thing? Or should we try (very hard) to un naturally keep normal things away from fish. We humans are immune to most parasites and other things because we don't live in a bubble like a quarantined fish does. We are loaded with parasites, viruses and bacteria yet they do not bother us.
Our biggest problem on long space flights is the lack of disease pathogens because in a short time, we will lose our immunity and if we come back to Earth, we will have to quarantine ourselves because even a cold will kill us.
Many people get sick in hospitals because everything is sterile so the only diseases and bacteria come from the sick people themselves.
Geezers like me and a few others started this hobby way before the internet or even computers. We had to learn the hard way, by killing a lot of fish. But we learned the right way, not from listening to 87,000,000 people with fish tanks some of which were started last Tuesday and the guy says, to eliminate algae, add a crab, or change the water. Does that ever work? No it doesn't.
Daltrey
Valuable Member
I am always open to new ideas. Especially from someone with more experience. But my question is how does someone new to the hobby learn to diagnose and treat these diseases. So do the fish just become immune to marine velvet, brooklynella and ich? Do you treat these same fish as the symptoms appear in a seperate tank? How could they even be treated in the same tank when the medications would kill coral and invertebrates?
I walk into the local petco and their fish are covered with diseases. Why haven't they become immune? I know for a fact most die within the first week they recieve them. If there is a better way I am all for listening. It just seems to defy logic.
I have always been taught to think outside the box. I work for Toyota and we are always trying to come up with better and more efficient ways of doing things. Our whole pillar is built around the principle to always improve and that the right process will produce the right results.
So what is the right way?
Sure if I go out and buy 100 fish and throw them in a tank one is bound to be immune and survive. But what about the other 99 that aren’t so lucky?
I walk into the local petco and their fish are covered with diseases. Why haven't they become immune? I know for a fact most die within the first week they recieve them. If there is a better way I am all for listening. It just seems to defy logic.
I have always been taught to think outside the box. I work for Toyota and we are always trying to come up with better and more efficient ways of doing things. Our whole pillar is built around the principle to always improve and that the right process will produce the right results.
So what is the right way?
Sure if I go out and buy 100 fish and throw them in a tank one is bound to be immune and survive. But what about the other 99 that aren’t so lucky?
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Paul B
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Daltry, nice to meet you by the way. The methods I "preach" are not new. They were the only way when the hobby started, then someone, probably Bryant Gumbal invented the internet and changed everything we thought was right because as I said anyone can post anything and state it as fact when in truth most of those "facts" came about from a guy in the hobby a short time and has come across that problem once.
Things such as: My fish had ich, I played RAP music, added a cleaner wrasse and garlic and the fish were cured so that's what every one should do.
Then that guy gets out of the hobby and becomes the manager of the French Fry machine at Burger King but his theories keep bouncing around inside the box.
If you look on this, and any forum you will see thousands of fish that died in quarantine and thousands more that got sick and died after quarantineing.
What you said about most people "can't" get their fish is not exactly true. It's like saying most people can't ride a bicycle. They can't if they do it wrong.
My tank used to be an ick magnet. I thought all fish came with white spots and only lived a few weeks. It also had so much algae in it that I could have opened up a produce stand. It took many years but I finally figured out how to solve almost all tank problems. I didn't know what the heck I was doing but I knew how to kill fish. Remember I have had a fish tank continuously since 1952. In that time I had to at least accidently learn something.
My theory is (and most people will disagree with this which is why I posted all those pictures of spawning fish) All fish in the sea are immune to parasites. Common sense dictates that they have to be being that all their meals have parasites in them and they are swimming in water full of parasites. So they are immune. How long that immunity lasts after they are no longer in contact with parasites is debatable but I am sure it is at least a few weeks or at least long enough for us to buy the fish.
Now you will say, then how come many of the fish in the store are sick? That is a good question and I have a good answer. Fish are not like most of us (although I dated this cute girl in Colorado who reminded me of a flounder. A very cute flounder which is what drew me to her)
We humans can live quite nicely on a diet of potato chips, beer, Spam, French Fries and Happy Meals. On that diet, which many Americans eat we can still "spawn" and live to 70 or 80 years. (although we may get pimples) Fish are totally different and have not been "domesticated" for a couple of million years. We can live just fine on cooked, processed and overly salted food. Fish, on the other hand live on fresh, mostly live foods along with the living bacteria and living parasites that fill the prey fishes intestines.
Those bacteria and parasites are processed through the fishes kidney (unlike us) The kidney then manufactures the white blood cells and macrophages that deal with those pathogens. Fish don't have bone marrow to grow their immune system.
Most of the fishes immunity goes into the slime which is water soluble and constantly renewed. That takes a lot of calories but the slime contains the substances that ward off and kill parasites.
When we buy a fish, it' still has it's immunity from the sea but because of lack of the correct food, or in many cases, any food, the fish doesn't have any energy to manufacture white blood cells or macrophages to kill parasites. Even if the fish is fed in the store, it probably went a few days in a dark container with little oxygen and no food. It may not eat in a bare tank in the store anyway.
So we buy a sick fish. All we need to do is put the fish in a stress free environment. Not a bare, quarantine tank with PVC elbows, but a real tank with real hiding places like rocks and real food like it was used to eating "with the associated bacteria and parasites".
If given the correct food and the fish is not in the process of receiving last rites, it should recover in a day or so and eat. The rest of the fish are still immune so they will not be bothered by any parasites the sick fish brings in and their immunity will benefit from the added parasites.
The parasites will live forever in the tank as they sample some fishes slime and jump off before they are killed. Those parasites keep the fish immune forever.
All fish should only die of old age as mine do. Sickness is a non issue and I have no medications, hospital or quarantine tank and I have not needed them in decades.
It is simple "But" as I always say, a new tank with new water owned by a new aquarist will never be healthy. Especially if that aquarist quarantines and feeds food such as dry foods which have no living bacteria. Living bacteria is the key and I feed my fish live blackworms almost every day as well as live new born brine shrimp. I also buy live clams and freeze them. I supplement all that with LRS food which has living bacteria but not parasites that you can't freeze. After a while, as I said the parasites will live right along side the fish and keep them immune forever.
That is my theory. I have written many articles on it and even wrote a book which you do not have to read because I just told it all to you.
Do what you wish with this information as I am not the God of fish. But try not to take advice from someone who started his tank last Tuesday.
26 year old clowns spawning
Things such as: My fish had ich, I played RAP music, added a cleaner wrasse and garlic and the fish were cured so that's what every one should do.
Then that guy gets out of the hobby and becomes the manager of the French Fry machine at Burger King but his theories keep bouncing around inside the box.
If you look on this, and any forum you will see thousands of fish that died in quarantine and thousands more that got sick and died after quarantineing.
What you said about most people "can't" get their fish is not exactly true. It's like saying most people can't ride a bicycle. They can't if they do it wrong.
My tank used to be an ick magnet. I thought all fish came with white spots and only lived a few weeks. It also had so much algae in it that I could have opened up a produce stand. It took many years but I finally figured out how to solve almost all tank problems. I didn't know what the heck I was doing but I knew how to kill fish. Remember I have had a fish tank continuously since 1952. In that time I had to at least accidently learn something.
My theory is (and most people will disagree with this which is why I posted all those pictures of spawning fish) All fish in the sea are immune to parasites. Common sense dictates that they have to be being that all their meals have parasites in them and they are swimming in water full of parasites. So they are immune. How long that immunity lasts after they are no longer in contact with parasites is debatable but I am sure it is at least a few weeks or at least long enough for us to buy the fish.
Now you will say, then how come many of the fish in the store are sick? That is a good question and I have a good answer. Fish are not like most of us (although I dated this cute girl in Colorado who reminded me of a flounder. A very cute flounder which is what drew me to her)
We humans can live quite nicely on a diet of potato chips, beer, Spam, French Fries and Happy Meals. On that diet, which many Americans eat we can still "spawn" and live to 70 or 80 years. (although we may get pimples) Fish are totally different and have not been "domesticated" for a couple of million years. We can live just fine on cooked, processed and overly salted food. Fish, on the other hand live on fresh, mostly live foods along with the living bacteria and living parasites that fill the prey fishes intestines.
Those bacteria and parasites are processed through the fishes kidney (unlike us) The kidney then manufactures the white blood cells and macrophages that deal with those pathogens. Fish don't have bone marrow to grow their immune system.
Most of the fishes immunity goes into the slime which is water soluble and constantly renewed. That takes a lot of calories but the slime contains the substances that ward off and kill parasites.
When we buy a fish, it' still has it's immunity from the sea but because of lack of the correct food, or in many cases, any food, the fish doesn't have any energy to manufacture white blood cells or macrophages to kill parasites. Even if the fish is fed in the store, it probably went a few days in a dark container with little oxygen and no food. It may not eat in a bare tank in the store anyway.
So we buy a sick fish. All we need to do is put the fish in a stress free environment. Not a bare, quarantine tank with PVC elbows, but a real tank with real hiding places like rocks and real food like it was used to eating "with the associated bacteria and parasites".
If given the correct food and the fish is not in the process of receiving last rites, it should recover in a day or so and eat. The rest of the fish are still immune so they will not be bothered by any parasites the sick fish brings in and their immunity will benefit from the added parasites.
The parasites will live forever in the tank as they sample some fishes slime and jump off before they are killed. Those parasites keep the fish immune forever.
All fish should only die of old age as mine do. Sickness is a non issue and I have no medications, hospital or quarantine tank and I have not needed them in decades.
It is simple "But" as I always say, a new tank with new water owned by a new aquarist will never be healthy. Especially if that aquarist quarantines and feeds food such as dry foods which have no living bacteria. Living bacteria is the key and I feed my fish live blackworms almost every day as well as live new born brine shrimp. I also buy live clams and freeze them. I supplement all that with LRS food which has living bacteria but not parasites that you can't freeze. After a while, as I said the parasites will live right along side the fish and keep them immune forever.
That is my theory. I have written many articles on it and even wrote a book which you do not have to read because I just told it all to you.
Do what you wish with this information as I am not the God of fish. But try not to take advice from someone who started his tank last Tuesday.
26 year old clowns spawning
Paul B
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Immunity in fishes slime
Ref:
Me
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/
Ref:
Me
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/
320g...
Ah, yes, that terrible advice from Triton labs...
To add a recent experience to this... Mata tang added to my tank last week... torn fins, ich spots, query bacterial infection on flank...
Pics below... 1st on day of purchase, 2nd yesterday when ich returned... 3rd today. No ich, no bacterial infection, fins healing...
No QT, no 'treatment'... quality food, including guts and bones of fish, natural seaweed, blackworm, freshly frozen mussels...
No other fish have (or will) show any signs of infection.
A few months ago, my heniochus butterfly had a bout of velvet... possibly two strains, possibly ich too. He's still living, still fine, no other fish showed any symptoms...
Pics below... 1st on day of purchase, 2nd yesterday when ich returned... 3rd today. No ich, no bacterial infection, fins healing...
No QT, no 'treatment'... quality food, including guts and bones of fish, natural seaweed, blackworm, freshly frozen mussels...
No other fish have (or will) show any signs of infection.
A few months ago, my heniochus butterfly had a bout of velvet... possibly two strains, possibly ich too. He's still living, still fine, no other fish showed any symptoms...
Daltrey
Valuable Member
What about corals. Do you quarantine or treat corals?
Also what happens if the fish you add has brooklynilia or velvet?
I don't remember these diseases being so common 20 years ago. Or maybe I was just lucky. At the time I was stationed in Virginia in the Navy close to the ocean and there were better fish stores with more knowledgeable staff. Unfortunately being 350 miles from the ocean I don't have that luxury anymore.
So far my lfs has ordered me three fish and every one was dead by the time I went to pick them up the same week. Out of the four I did buy one had intestinal parasites that I treated and two died the next day after adding them to my display tank. Petsmart fish look like the worst I have ever seen. And basically I am left with ordering everything online. That was when I decided to setup a quarantine.
Also what happens if the fish you add has brooklynilia or velvet?
I don't remember these diseases being so common 20 years ago. Or maybe I was just lucky. At the time I was stationed in Virginia in the Navy close to the ocean and there were better fish stores with more knowledgeable staff. Unfortunately being 350 miles from the ocean I don't have that luxury anymore.
So far my lfs has ordered me three fish and every one was dead by the time I went to pick them up the same week. Out of the four I did buy one had intestinal parasites that I treated and two died the next day after adding them to my display tank. Petsmart fish look like the worst I have ever seen. And basically I am left with ordering everything online. That was when I decided to setup a quarantine.
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Paul B
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Nothing.
Daltrey
Valuable Member
Are the worms you are feeding live? Where do you get them from? Also where are you getting the freshly frozen mussels? I need to look into getting better foods. So far I only feed a mix of these.
Daltrey
Valuable Member
I'm not jumping on the latest unproven trend. I will let everyone learn the hard way from that one. I still say it's the worst idea ever. Why overcomplicate something that's not complicated.
I can do a 25 gallon water change in 10 minutes using my mixing station. No need to send my water samples out and worry about dosing and keeping consistant levels of everything. Everything my tank needs is in the salt I add.
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