Looking for a second light fixture. Another viparspectra vs expensive leds vs DIY T5

[KonradTO]

Allow me to explain my confusion...

I run some generic bb, removed lenses. Light is 25cm above tank. White channel is at value 15, which translate to 5-6%, while blue channel i run at value 200, which is roughly 80%.

But this is supplement ligh, not primary, its paired with 2 rs90, which i run at 100% all channels. Lenght of tank require 3 lights, so bb serves as gap filling light, to give that little exta punch for middle of tank. Tank is lps/softies.

So now u see why i have hard time to understand how someone can grow sps or anything runing this type of light at such low settings. Sadly, dont have par meter, i tried whith photone app, after removing lenses, at 80% blue and 6% white, par readings at top of water are around 100par.... While rs90 at same distance from water reads about 400par.... So i guess, at the bottom verry little is left from that 100par output.

Of course, there can be error in readings whith app, but that makes my confusion even greater.....

100 PAR at surface with vipar is probably reached with 5% blue only. Maybe our fixtures are different.. several people measured PAR with this BB and at 50B 20W I think they were getting something like 600 PAR at surface and 200 at bottom. But I would check the link I posted at the beginning of the thread, because I am not sure I remember right. Also I point out that I am a newby with reefing so I cannot tell whether the amount of light I have is enough..
There is a fellow reefer in the vipar thread which keeps a fantastic lps tank at 1w 5b and said that when tried to higher the light intensity at 20b got a lot of corals suffering. He did not post the par readin

Yea looks like a mystery..
Think the bigger question would be why more light "burns" them than why so little light keeps them alive though.
I have no idea...
Orig "data"

As I said I really have no idea if keeping the settings like this will make those frags thrive and grow. Other users told me to be careful with this led because they got their corals bleached when raised the intensity, for whatever reason. You are more experienced than me so you I am open to more suggestions. My frags now are alive and well, if they show underlit symptomps I will slowly increase the intensity and keep everyone posted about it. The seriatopora I guess will show less polyp extension after few weeks if underlit right? Or will become brown?
Another point is that many corals we keep are found all the way until 20-30 m deep so I would not be suprised if they are very flexible in terms of little light if properly fed.

 

[Koh23]

Not sure, kinda doubt that 5% blue can give such par, this is not realistic on way expensive units..... There is limit that 3w chip can give, and here we talking about undervolted 3w, so probably max 2w....

But hey, everyrhing is possible, it that is the case then this is excellent light

 

[Uriken]

I ran my Vipars before my tank crash with Blues at 35% and whites at 2%. Had a fully stocked SPS tank with many at the bottom of the tank. Aside from the back and forth on these lights I did want to suggest looking into the SMAT Farm light fixture that is on Amazon. They are building in popularity due to the price versus what they can do.

 

[Koh23]

Probably is the matter of how many units vs tank size.....

 

[KonradTO]

Finally the kessil arrived! I love the color at highet blues settings and corals definitely pop more. In terms of par I will compare them with a luxometer (whites only) but it is clear that the kessil are much weaker. With kessil only the tank is quite dark, I would say that it correspond to the vipar at 10% intensity

 

[MichaelP]

If you are looking for a comparison with and without lens I ran one on my 40 breeder using the 300w vipra.

At 12 inches above the water here we’re the results

with the lens blue 30% white 1%
3/4 up/top of the rocks 200-250 par
bottom of the tank 120-150 par

to get the exact same par reading without the lens I had it crank them up to 95% blue and 30% white.

the color and spread was a bit better with the lens removed but it filled the whole room with blue light so I went back to the lens.

imo if you remove the lens you should mount them much closer like 6-8 inches off the water

 

[KonradTO]

If you are looking for a comparison with and without lens I ran one on my 40 breeder using the 300w vipra.

At 12 inches above the water here we’re the results

with the lens blue 30% white 1%
3/4 up/top of the rocks 200-250 par
bottom of the tank 120-150 par

to get the exact same par reading without the lens I had it crank them up to 95% blue and 30% white.

the color and spread was a bit better with the lens removed but it filled the whole room with blue light so I went back to the lens.

imo if you remove the lens you should mount them much closer like 6-8 inches off the water

Holy cow. That also means that the led will consume much more energy without lenses I guess.

 

[KonradTO]

Finally the kessil arrived! I love the color at highet blues settings and corals definitely pop more. In terms of par I will compare them with a luxometer (whites only) but it is clear that the kessil are much weaker. With kessil only the tank is quite dark, I would say that it correspond to the vipar at 10% intensity

Anyone has some feedback on the setting? would you use the kessil for populating the dark spot on the right with some low ligth lps corals or use it to integrate the spectrum from the vipar? at the moment the left side of the tank is very bright with both (I will slowly increase par to not bleach corals) but the right side I think cannot grow much with the exception of maybe some xenia

 

[Uriken]

Finally the kessil arrived! I love the color at highet blues settings and corals definitely pop more. In terms of par I will compare them with a luxometer (whites only) but it is clear that the kessil are much weaker. With kessil only the tank is quite dark, I would say that it correspond to the vipar at 10% intensity

I think you will be happy. I put mine right between my Vipar Boxes since I had 2. The only thing I would suggest if you can is position the Kessel straight down if possible with the lense slightly below the Vipar LED's so you will get a more balanced spread. I know without their mounting arm you have to get creative hanging it but with a little time and patience you can get the light to blend with the Vipars and still cover the entire tank bottom. I also wasn't interested in buying Kessels controller to run it since the Vipar boxes have the timers in it to control the spectrum throughout the day so I put it on an Electrical Outlet Timer so it can chime in and shut back off. I wish you the best of luck. Kessel is a good quality brand in my experience.
Happy Reefing

 

[KonradTO]

I think you will be happy. I put mine right between my Vipar Boxes since I had 2. The only thing I would suggest if you can is position the Kessel straight down if possible with the lense slightly below the Vipar LED's so you will get a more balanced spread. I know without their mounting arm you have to get creative hanging it but with a little time and patience you can get the light to blend with the Vipars and still cover the entire tank bottom. I also wasn't interested in buying Kessels controller to run it since the Vipar boxes have the timers in it to control the spectrum throughout the day so I put it on an Electrical Outlet Timer so it can chime in and shut back off. I wish you the best of luck. Kessel is a good quality brand in my experience.
Happy Reefing

As a gooseneck I am using a flash holder for dsrl cameras. Instead for controlling light color and intensity I am using the reefpi controller (using the Robotank hardware) very happy with it.

 

[DavidinGA]

Holy cow. That also means that the led will consume much more energy without lenses I guess.

fwiw...a typical led black box off eBay (mars aqua, etc) uses 100w MAX with both channels at 100%. If the power draw is perfectly linear (which its probably not), then at 50% both channels its using 50w of energy. An increase of 50w is really nothing to worry about...

 

[Koh23]

The led will consume same amount of energy, lenses really dont make difference....

What makes it, is % on what u will be running your lights and that is somewhat connected to use/not use lenses.... Meaning no lenses for same par as with lenses = more power to run leds....

Beside that, most.people who dont use lenses have specific reason for that, so again, really not related to power usage.....

 

[Koh23]

Ok, to continue my journey into not understanding all of this....

So, i had some time to kill, and i measured par on my black box. It's not viparspectra, but, one way or another, results should be the same, it's all same light...

Well...

30cm (lets say 12") above tank, at water level, readings are.....

All three channels (blue, white, moonlight) at 100% - 860 par
White channel only @100% - 680 par
Blue channel only @100% - 168 par
Moonlight channel (3x3w blue) - not measured, no need

There is small error in measuring, other lights were running at very low %, so, about 10-ish par is gathered from other light source, or it can be address to moonlight channel.

So, with all channels at 100%, it IS possible to have 200-300 par in middle of tank, in my case, that would be around 24" (60cm) from light to measuring point.... Or, at 36" (from light to bottom of tank), still there is a chance that u will have 50-ish par.....

But, when you dimm channels, specially white, there is no way in the world that u can have same par at same level.

So, if you translate plain numbers (and of course, this is somewhat wrong way to do it), when u set white channel at 1%, and blue to 30% (lets say)......

It is impossible to have any meaningful par not even in the middle of tank. Even with wrong math, both channels reduced to 50% gives output of 400-ish par at water level..... 24" lower..... not so much.

Bear with me some more, please....

If you use 30% blue channel, that gives around 50-60 par AT water level, when mounting at 12" above tank.... What's left for underwater?

Blue channel is 4 times weaker than white..... even if it's all same wattage chips....

That is with lenses, without lenses, things are even worse, in best case, you can get around 200-ish par at water level....

I don't know is there any math that you can calculate par loss under water, but, plain logic says - you loose a lot....

So, meaning of all of this is not to doubt anyone who measured, or uses their black boxes with such low settings, but to ask how?

Some of conclusions that i can come up with is - shallow tanks, low mounting height, something is wrong with my light, or maybe some people "adjust" their numbers a bit... . Or, my par readings are not accurate, not even close to real picture....

Even if i don't like BRS, even their tests confirms most of my thoughts - crazy amount of par, but mainly because white channels, if you reduce that channel to something visual appealing, you loose up to 70% of output par....

So, again, please...how?

 

[KonradTO]

Ok let's first clarify that since our eyes are not optimized to guess light intensity with heavy blues its hard to make comparisons.
Nevertheless, my kessil a160 alone is supposed to be more then enough to grow lps and some easy sps at-say- 50% intensity.
Now, at 50% the kessil looks less bright than my vipar at 1%w 20% blue. Probably at 100% is equivalent to 5% white 50% blue. Finally, just have a look out there on how people grow corals at which intensity with the vipars. Maybe your black box is different and we are comparing pears to apples

 

[Koh23]

That is a option, sure...

But, again i must call out for brs testing, viparspectra included, their cocnslusion is that all of bb are basicaly the same, in term of output....

Beside that, i measure par.... 230par, 12" below light at water surface, blue channels 100, white channel 30.

So, u see from where my confusion comes...

Either viparspectra are 5 times stronger than any other bb, or my measuring os wrong, this is not limited to viparspectras or black boxes, i really cannot understand how people manage to use their lights at 20-30%....

 

[Duncan62]

Hi everyone!

My tank (32g AIO long) was first "divided" in 2 different zones: corals with rockwork on left side and macros on the opposite side. Since, moved all my macros from my DT to the fuge I am not running anymore the white light on the "macro" side of the tank. On the "coral" side of the tank I am using a viparspectra BB (165W) which I need to use at very low intensity (1%W 10%B) because it would kill everything otherwise.
Now, I am planning to use the right side of the tank for corals as well, especially for those who require more flow, since it's closer to the wavemaker. Therefore I need to find a second light for that..
I am a bit struggling with the choice: I only have the viparspectra as comparison, so I cannot really tell the benefit of getting a more expensive LED fixture this time.
Any ideas out there? is there someone that tried the expensive ones (Kessil, AI prime etc) and also the viparspectra and can make a comparison on coral growth/look of the tank etc?
Another alternative would be DIY a T5 fixture (I am quite proficient with soldering and DIY in general so I would be open to that). What would be the benefit/disadvantage with t5s instead of the vipar?

In terms of requirements I want to be able to grow SPS on the top and softies on the bottom. ATM I have some zoas, duncan, toadstool and 2 seriatopora frags, but I have no idea if they are ok with the light. They are open and show PE but I am seeing no growth for now.


P.s. I am not interested in programmability/remote controls/ramps and such.

Check the 21ledusa site. Great bar lights and actinic flood lights. I've got 7 of their light growing all types from zoas to acro. Great lights and affordable.

 

[KonradTO]

That is a option, sure...

But, again i must call out for brs testing, viparspectra included, their cocnslusion is that all of bb are basicaly the same, in term of output....

Beside that, i measure par.... 230par, 12" below light at water surface, blue channels 100, white channel 30.

So, u see from where my confusion comes...

Either viparspectra are 5 times stronger than any other bb, or my measuring os wrong, this is not limited to viparspectras or black boxes, i really cannot understand how people manage to use their lights at 20-30%....

Also I think corals can survive fine with lower than usual light intensity.
Since I opened the thread I had to do a total blackout for gha. So I switched to 1%white 15%blue to no lights and now everything is set for few weeks at 15% blue only. Sps corals have the polyps out and are doing well. Obviously I cannot tell about growth and for how long they can survive with this light.
In my case I am planning to increase slowly lights until I see them doing well. But this is OT anyway

 

[KonradTO]

Check the 21ledusa site. Great bar lights and actinic flood lights. I've got 7 of their light growing all types from zoas to acro. Great lights and affordable.

Thanks for the suggestion @Duncan62 ! Anyway atm I think I have more than enough for my small tank: in the end I got a kessil a160 together with the viparspectra, so I think that its enough for a while. The question is more how to position them depending on the scape

 

[Koh23]

...and now everything is set for few weeks at 15% blue only.

Did you measure par maybe?

 

[KonradTO]

Did you measure par maybe?

No unfortunately the cost for a par meter is out of my reach for now. Here in EU shops do not rent those, or at least not the ones I know. And end of the day the importat thing is that corals are happy. I would be curious as well to know how much par I do have in my tank though