Seansea
Valuable Member
Do you have the results of your latest icp? Maybe post it and we can take a look and see if it's something we see. Mine had high copper in the tank and in my rodi water. Changed out the di resin and it helped.
Losing coral at slow pace to the point of wanting to quit. (Pics included)
ninjamyst
2500 Club Member
Even if it's bacterial, it's because corals are weak and stressed and can't fight it off. I know it was a bacterial infection that turned my Walt Disney and palm size setosas bone white in 24 hours while my other acros survived. I had another frag of setosa in the same tank that was fine.
PO4 between 0.01 - 0.08 is IMO too low because of margin of error with test kit.
I am a huge believer in big import of nutrients and big export of waste. With all the fancy gadgets, we are swinging into big export but not enough import.
vitaliyphoto
Active Member
Sure! https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/icp-oes/187756
Curious, what levels do you recommend on PO4? I test with Hanna btw.
skey44
Active Member
Have you tried Benepets to spot feed the acros? I am leaning to siding with those that have mentioned a need to feed more heavily. It seems to really work for me. It also has minimal impact on nitrates/phosphates.
I have gotten a few corals that don’t look the best on purchase and they seem to immediately respond to my feeding schedule. I turn off the pumps for about 30 minutes and mist the acros with benepets. It really is amazing the difference it can make in a coral that needs a little rehab.
Also seeing your lithium is high (artificial rock leaching?)
Low iodine and manganese from your test as well.
What salt are you using?
What additives do you use, especially for Ca/Alk/trace?
If you suspect a possible pathogenic cause for your coral mortality I would not cut back on the UV. It would actually prompt me to make sure my bulbs/sleeve were new to prevent spread of disease if waterborne.
I have gotten a few corals that don’t look the best on purchase and they seem to immediately respond to my feeding schedule. I turn off the pumps for about 30 minutes and mist the acros with benepets. It really is amazing the difference it can make in a coral that needs a little rehab.
Also seeing your lithium is high (artificial rock leaching?)
Low iodine and manganese from your test as well.
What salt are you using?
What additives do you use, especially for Ca/Alk/trace?
If you suspect a possible pathogenic cause for your coral mortality I would not cut back on the UV. It would actually prompt me to make sure my bulbs/sleeve were new to prevent spread of disease if waterborne.
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vitaliyphoto
Active Member
I looked up Randy’s posts and he said Lithium is of no concern. I have since this ICP switched to Tropic Marine Pro salt. I dose All-For-Reef which is another suspect in my issues since this is the supplement since day one. UV is staying on. Issue is I feed pretty heavy. 1x auto feed with pellets and reefroids, good chunk of Nori and 2 cubes of mysis every day in a 100 gallon reef.
skey44
Active Member
How much AFR do you dose daily? Wondering if the bacterial driven conversion could possibly cause this issue?
I dose AFR in my 100 gallon system and thus far am having success at 45ml a day spread between 24 doses a day l with steady growth this far of corals/coralline/ inverts/fish. I do plan to potentially need another source of Ca/alk when reach the maximum dose.
I also use TMPR salt and wouldn’t change that unless something equivalent and cheaper comes out. I don’t see anything that’s as clean mixing and has the same parameter that also costs less ATM. NYOS looks good, but it’s the same price as TMPro
I maintain an alk of 8 so that my WC does not cause any alk instability. TMPR mixes to alk of 8.
Also your phosphate instability could be an issue. Mine stay in the same place from 0.03-0.05. I am running GFO in a reactor, but change it so infrequently I wonder if it’s even doing anything (last change over 3 months ago).
Also maybe check for stray voltage? How are the other fish and inverts doing in your setup?
The fact that there are different types of coral not doing well make me think it’s a systemic issue with either water quality, lighting, flow, or predation. Something has to be off despite what Randy or chat gpt says. I think in these instances watching the tank closely and having an open mind are very important to come up with a solution. Also don’t over react and change everything at once. I can tell you are definitely trying hard, but haven’t gotten there yet. That “aha” thing that’s not quite right is getting missed.
Good luck fixing the issue. I know how bad it sucks just when a coral looks like it’s thinking about doing well, much less dying consistently.
Following along for resolution at this point.
I dose AFR in my 100 gallon system and thus far am having success at 45ml a day spread between 24 doses a day l with steady growth this far of corals/coralline/ inverts/fish. I do plan to potentially need another source of Ca/alk when reach the maximum dose.
I also use TMPR salt and wouldn’t change that unless something equivalent and cheaper comes out. I don’t see anything that’s as clean mixing and has the same parameter that also costs less ATM. NYOS looks good, but it’s the same price as TMPro
I maintain an alk of 8 so that my WC does not cause any alk instability. TMPR mixes to alk of 8.
Also your phosphate instability could be an issue. Mine stay in the same place from 0.03-0.05. I am running GFO in a reactor, but change it so infrequently I wonder if it’s even doing anything (last change over 3 months ago).
Also maybe check for stray voltage? How are the other fish and inverts doing in your setup?
The fact that there are different types of coral not doing well make me think it’s a systemic issue with either water quality, lighting, flow, or predation. Something has to be off despite what Randy or chat gpt says. I think in these instances watching the tank closely and having an open mind are very important to come up with a solution. Also don’t over react and change everything at once. I can tell you are definitely trying hard, but haven’t gotten there yet. That “aha” thing that’s not quite right is getting missed.
Good luck fixing the issue. I know how bad it sucks just when a coral looks like it’s thinking about doing well, much less dying consistently.
Following along for resolution at this point.
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vitaliyphoto
Active Member
Dosing exactly same amount of AFR, 44ml. I raise mine alk to 9 before adding. I’m now trying to see if I add filter socks if this would go away, maybe corals are getting micro abrasions or something from so much particles being suspended? This would certainly go in hand with water changes reducing death a bit.
I measured stray voltage at like .1 volt or less which I read is common
My feeling is that the system hasn’t reached an ecological maturity for LPS or certainly SPS since it seems you started out with just dead dry rock. You might want to try to add some live rock (cultured or from someone’s successful reef) and give it a few more months. Maybe just let it run without adding any new corals for a while. Try some softies. Do fish do OK in your tank? I know your tank is 2 years old, but I struggled for the first year to get LPS/SPS going and that’s starting out with some live rock and sand from my old reef.
formallydehyde
Active Member
1. Carbon blocks ensure that the vast majority of the water going through them has seen carbon. Carbon pellets will leave lots of voids of unprocessed water. The pore sizes on activated carbon can also have an effect on how much of a type of compound it removes. Pelletized carbon is more commonly used for applications where the same water is continuously run through it allowing it to remove a little more stuff each pass.
2. You are misunderstanding what ChatGPT is and should stop using it for advice immediately. It's a language learning model. It's a thing that's meant to generate text which *looks* correct based on the text its seen before, but it has no ability to fact check or think critically. It does not know anything about the properties of a particular type of activated carbon, it's told you that ROX 0.8 should work because it's probably done something like the following:
ROX 0.8 is activated carbon. Phrases involving ROX 0.8 are positive (because essentially all info on ROX 0.8 is advertising copy from BRS). There is an association with the phrases "activated carbon" (in general) and "removing chloramines." Therefore, asking anything about ROX 0.8 removing chloramines should elicit a positive response (whether this is true or not).
skey44
Active Member
Well said. I agree 100 percent.
vitaliyphoto
Active Member
I got a few nice rocks from a successful reef a month or so ago. Fish are ok with this disease now spreading to remainer of the sps corals. Bumps on skin/skeleton, deformed growth, slow to no growth are the symptoms.
I have never had this happen before as there’s a very specific way the corals are affected.
My city doesn’t use chloramine, I have further verified with the city it’s chlorine only (Cleveland Water). I use a normal carbon block cartridge in the RO.
vitaliyphoto
Active Member
This is the nature of the beast:
I have experienced two very frustrating occasions where excessive water changes were required just to keep the corals alive. In both cases the cause was depleted trace elements.
Due to the Limits Of Detection of ICP-OES and your zero levels of Fe, Mn, Co, Cr, Zn, and V, depletion of the Most Biologically Critical Trace Elements in your tank cannot be ruled out. Iodine registered, but is very low. It's very possible that a deficiency of one or more of these elements is the cause of your issue. This is in spite of your heavy feeding, and water changes! Some tanks (two of mine) are like this for unknown reasons.
To get a clearer picture of your trace element levels, I strongly suggest the much more sensitive ICP-MS (not the ICP-OES) test from Oceamo before you do anything.
https://andremueller.e-junkie.com/product/1758008/Reef-Moonshiner26230393Bs-ICP-MS-Test
Here is my chart of Generally Accepted Biologically Critical Trace Elements, kind of in order of importance.
Some factors that may contribute to a depletion include:
GAC - Can really strip a tank. Especially ROX.
GFO - Can really strip a tank. (No ReefRoids, it’s like powdered phosphate!)
UV - Can possible cause some trace elements like iron to change state, and become less bioavailable.
If ICP-MS confirmed, treatment can include a series of 4-5 25-30% water changes a few days apart to rebalance the elements. Then you have to decide how to supplement trace moving forward. Tropic Marin AK is a broad spectrum option, and another option is individual elements based on the ICP-MS results.
I currently use both methods on different tanks, and my two problem tanks were cured with daily additions of individual elements Fe, Mg, Co, Cr, I, and weekly Zn addition all guided by ICP-MS. I use a loose blend of the Oceano minimum recommended levels, and the levels of fresh Blue Bucket seawater as target levels. I consider the upper block of elements in my chart above to be very important to the health of a tank. Many deplete very rapidly in a matter of days.
Randy has a couple threads regarding this topic:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/randys-elements-to-dose.1030557/
Due to the Limits Of Detection of ICP-OES and your zero levels of Fe, Mn, Co, Cr, Zn, and V, depletion of the Most Biologically Critical Trace Elements in your tank cannot be ruled out. Iodine registered, but is very low. It's very possible that a deficiency of one or more of these elements is the cause of your issue. This is in spite of your heavy feeding, and water changes! Some tanks (two of mine) are like this for unknown reasons.
To get a clearer picture of your trace element levels, I strongly suggest the much more sensitive ICP-MS (not the ICP-OES) test from Oceamo before you do anything.
https://andremueller.e-junkie.com/product/1758008/Reef-Moonshiner26230393Bs-ICP-MS-Test
Here is my chart of Generally Accepted Biologically Critical Trace Elements, kind of in order of importance.
Some factors that may contribute to a depletion include:
GAC - Can really strip a tank. Especially ROX.
GFO - Can really strip a tank. (No ReefRoids, it’s like powdered phosphate!)
UV - Can possible cause some trace elements like iron to change state, and become less bioavailable.
If ICP-MS confirmed, treatment can include a series of 4-5 25-30% water changes a few days apart to rebalance the elements. Then you have to decide how to supplement trace moving forward. Tropic Marin AK is a broad spectrum option, and another option is individual elements based on the ICP-MS results.
I currently use both methods on different tanks, and my two problem tanks were cured with daily additions of individual elements Fe, Mg, Co, Cr, I, and weekly Zn addition all guided by ICP-MS. I use a loose blend of the Oceano minimum recommended levels, and the levels of fresh Blue Bucket seawater as target levels. I consider the upper block of elements in my chart above to be very important to the health of a tank. Many deplete very rapidly in a matter of days.
Randy has a couple threads regarding this topic:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/randys-elements-to-dose.1030557/
vitaliyphoto
Active Member
Guys!!! This is it, I have finally found the IDENTICAL issue to mine:
Thread 'Tulip-polyp syndrome and neoplasia'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tulip-polyp-syndrome-and-neoplasia.819707/
Everything is exactly the same, bumps, polyps being tulip like, etc. this is what I am having.
Thread 'Tulip-polyp syndrome and neoplasia'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tulip-polyp-syndrome-and-neoplasia.819707/
Everything is exactly the same, bumps, polyps being tulip like, etc. this is what I am having.
vitaliyphoto
Active Member
I do 33% a week and this still persists. I have found the name of this thing, they tend to call it tulip syndrome or something where polyps tulip like mine and skin looks bumpy. Working with that thread now…I have experienced two very frustrating occasions where excessive water changes were required just to keep the corals alive. In both cases the cause was depleted trace elements.
Due to the Limits Of Detection of ICP-OES and your zero levels of Fe, Mn, Co, Cr, Zn, and V, depletion of the Most Biologically Critical Trace Elements in your tank cannot be ruled out. Iodine registered, but is very low. It's very possible that a deficiency of one or more of these elements is the cause of your issue. This is in spite of your heavy feeding, and water changes! Some tanks (two of mine) are like this for unknown reasons.
To get a clearer picture of your trace element levels, I strongly suggest the much more sensitive ICP-MS (not the ICP-OES) test from Oceamo before you do anything.
https://andremueller.e-junkie.com/product/1758008/Reef-Moonshiner26230393Bs-ICP-MS-Test
Here is my chart of Generally Accepted Biologically Critical Trace Elements, kind of in order of importance.
Some factors that may contribute to a depletion include:
GAC - Can really strip a tank. Especially ROX.
GFO - Can really strip a tank. (No ReefRoids, it’s like powdered phosphate!)
UV - Can possible cause some trace elements like iron to change state, and become less bioavailable.
If ICP-MS confirmed, treatment can include a series of 4-5 25-30% water changes a few days apart to rebalance the elements. Then you have to decide how to supplement trace moving forward. Tropic Marin AK is a broad spectrum option, and another option is individual elements based on the ICP-MS results.
I currently use both methods on different tanks, and my two problem tanks were cured with daily additions of individual elements Fe, Mg, Co, Cr, I, and weekly Zn addition all guided by ICP-MS. I use a loose blend of the Oceano minimum recommended levels, and the levels of fresh Blue Bucket seawater as target levels. I consider the upper block of elements in my chart above to be very important to the health of a tank. Many deplete very rapidly in a matter of days.
Randy has a couple threads regarding this topic:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/randys-elements-to-dose.1030557/
Attachments
That’s cool that you found a thread discussing your symptoms. I gave it a read, and also did some web search, and it appears the root cause continues to be unknown.
Many people have posted they performed ICP, but most likely they used ICP-OES, and not the new and more sensitive OES-MS. There is no question that issues can easily fly under the radar when using ICP-OES to diagnose a problem.
I understand you are performing a lot of water changes. But this statement troubles me:
“With water changes I tried a lot less water and things really go south with things dying even faster. But with overly aggressive water changes (33% each week) things were steady but most corals unhappy.”
This really suggests a trace element issue, especially with your Iodine only at 7 given all the water changes. My Blue Bucket mixes at 70. Remember, you cannot assume the elements you think you are replenishing with water changes are even present at the expected levels in your salt mix. You are also using an oversized UV that may be oxidizing or somehow messing with the trace elements.
In any case, I don’t think you can rule out a water chemistry issue at this time, and I still suggest an ICP-MS test to get a better understanding of your water chemistry.
Seansea
Valuable Member
U running an algae scrubber? Or fuge? That's really low iodine for dosing afr. I have to dose iodine using isol mt in my ato because afr can't keep up because the srubber pulls it out.. definatly need to get that up
vitaliyphoto
Active Member
Doing aggressive water changes to fix it. But my issue is not new, like a dozen of reefers have tulip syndrome with some type of hyperplasia. Narrowing it down to either bacteria that gets dosed on all for reef solution (yes there is some sort of growth in it for sure see the snoot in attached photo). Or carbon dosing sustaining the pathogenic bacteria. I use carbon dosing to control phosphate along with water changes.
formallydehyde
Active Member
Do you mean you're dosing carbon in addition to All For Reef? Because you might be right, AFR uses an organic calcium salt and so has a small carbon dosing effect on its own. If you can easily remove any of the affected corals have you tried dipping them to see if it makes them happier?Doing aggressive water changes to fix it. But my issue is not new, like a dozen of reefers have tulip syndrome with some type of hyperplasia. Narrowing it down to either bacteria that gets dosed on all for reef solution (yes there is some sort of growth in it for sure see the snoot in attached photo). Or carbon dosing sustaining the pathogenic bacteria. I use carbon dosing to control phosphate along with water changes.
vitaliyphoto
Active Member
I have not yet tried removing them. It would be pretty hard thing to do. I just launched vital changes and want to see if things are rectified in a month:
1. Switched out AFR and started Bionic
2. Removed carbon dosing
3. Switched from Hikari to PE Mysis (in case of pathogen being introduced continuously through frozen food)
4. Large water changes to accelerate recovery.
So far things reacting well but only time will tell.
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