Lost all fish to Velvet, losing all shrimp and corals to I have no idea what

Nataleeia · Mar 24, 2023

Hi all

New tank, new reef keeper. Done a lot of research so not just stabbing in the dark with it all. I do have some previous experience although relatively not too much.
30g tank, cycled it for 6 weeks, put some fish in with one cleaner shrimp.
We lost the first shrimp in a day and a few weeks later tried 2 more shrimp with the exact same behaviours, no movement, dead in hours/a day.
After a few weeks of fish being in tank and happy, I lost all fish to velvet within 24-48 hours. I did have a bit of white spot show up on one fish before the velvet outbreak that seemed to go away for a few weeks but then the velvet. Nothing new went in just before the velvet outbreak so we think it came from the original batch of fish but took time to colonise.
The fish were a regal tang, 2 clown fish, a royal gramma and a cleaner shrimp.

Currently tank is fallow after everything died and since its fallow I've been trying to get some corals going, but they are exhibiting very similar behaviour to the shrimp and dying pretty fast.

Only things I've managed to keep alive so far are a feather duster worm and a bunch of snails (3xturbo and 3xnassarius, but 1xturbo died within a few days very similar to the shrimps).

I'm kind of at a loss for what is actually going on. I've suspected it may be copper contamination due to a hose clip I used on the return pump (at the time, I thought stainless steel clips were a good idea to avoid rust but it appears that was a bad assumption) I have noticed the clip seems to have a blob of rust on it, I am going to be removing this clip later tonight and replacing with a cable tie.
I have done a copper test using an api test and it tested fine so it doesn't appear to be that, but its about all I can find in all my research around this topic. Overall this issue has been going on for a few months so I've been looking into it night and day and now I'm running out of ideas so needed to engage some experts.

I'll include a couple of pics of the tank, one of it looking OK with fish happy and one of it now. By the way, light has changed between the pics, was running an included light that came with the tank when just fish were in but when I got corals I got an AI prime 16HD which I believe I read would be suitable for my 80cmx40cm 120L tank.

I have lots more info, params etc, pictures, videos etc but rather than overload you all with info, I'll try and keep it simple for now and go from there.

Thank you for your time, I welcome and really appreciate any and all feedback.

Nat x

Sharkbait19 · Mar 24, 2023

Do you have any pics and videos of the fish and inverts before dying? The biggest symptom of velvet is fast breathing.
Please post the params as well, as there may be something you are missing.
How have new additions been acclimated?

mnl119 · Mar 24, 2023

Nataleeia said:
I am going to be removing this clip later tonight and replacing with a cable tie.

The make nylon or plastic ratcheting hose clamps. They work great and clamp the hose with a squeeze.

Also agree to post your parameters and how you measured them. API tests are notoriously inaccurate.

Since everything is dying (inverts and fish), I'd suspect ammonia, salinity, temperature, contamination etc.

Nataleeia · Mar 24, 2023

Sharkbait19 said:
Do you have any pics and videos of the fish and inverts before dying? The biggest symptom of velvet is fast breathing.
Please post the params as well, as there may be something you are missing.
How have new additions been acclimated?

I will post some pics and vids shortly. I'm not sure if I have many of them showing their symptoms of velvet, it happened pretty fast once it got going. But I do have quite a few pics and vids of the fish prior to dying and I always felt there was something a bit off about the regal tang's scales, she looked a bit shimmery which you may see in the video.

All the fish did start to do the fast breathing on the last day of life. We kind of suspected the tang always had the velvet but it just progressed over time, and when we consider that, we always thought the tang was pretty skittish, we just thought it was a bit of a trait of it. It acted very much like Dory from finding nemo so we just thought, "OK, this makes sense."
But looking back, I can see that was maybe the fact it was in too small an environment stressing it and the velvet slowly taking over, it did breath pretty fast at times but as we had her like a month or so we just thought thats the way she was. She kind of buddied up with the clown fish and they always seemed happy, eating well etc.
Also she used to sleep at night around the return pump outlet which I have read since is a sign of velvet and she did that pretty much from day one.

New additions were always acclimated, fish around 45mins-1 hour. Couldn't get dripping to work properly first time so just topped up small amounts over time. The last shrimp we tried a real slow acclimation of about 3 hours or more as we were concerned maybe we weren't acclimating properly.

As for parameters, ammonia has been 0 throughout, nitrite has been 0, nitrate always 5-10ppm, ph has dropped over time we think. It started around 8.1 and since the tank became empty it seemed to go down to 7.7. Although using the api kits its been really hard to tell and from what I've been reading, people don't rate them very high. We bought a ph pen recently and it tested at 8.1. I'm going to recalibrate and double check that tomorrow though to be sure.
Temp when fish were in was around 27c and since fallow we upped the temp to around 30c to try to help progress eliminating the velvet.

dedragon · Mar 24, 2023

first things i always ask, Are you using tap water or rodi? Do you have a refractometer AND calibrations solution at 1.0264?

For future tank additions make sure you dont buy any more tangs. No tang should be in a 30 gallon tank.

Nataleeia · Mar 24, 2023

mnl119 said:
The make nylon or plastic ratcheting hose clamps. They work great and clamp the hose with a squeeze.

Also agree to post your parameters and how you measured them. API tests are notoriously inaccurate.

Since everything is dying (inverts and fish), I'd suspect ammonia, salinity, temperature, contamination etc.

Awesome, I will grab some of those ratcheting clamps, thank you

As I mentioned in the reply above, I've noticed the general thoughts of api tests. What is the most cost effective testing I could do? I'm happy to invest a bit of money where it makes sense, like the ph pen I bought, just makes sense for accuracy. But if I can save some cost with some of it, why not, I have seen the hanna instrument readers seem to be the go to for everyone but I have also noticed they are about £80 each and I'd need about 6 or so

But over time, happy to do it if that's whats needed to get the environment perfect.

Thank you for reminding me about salinity. I actually haven't been recording it too well as I was using one of those fluval dip tester things but it seems awful, it fluctuated like crazy so I bought a refractometer although I'll admit, I haven't used it yet. The Fluval was testing around 1.024 though when the fish were in there although as I say, it seemed to bounce around a bit before settling, I was never convinced by it.
For the initial setup I used salted RO water from my LFS, for top ups I have used unsalted RO water from my LFS and water changes again salted RO from my LFS apart from one time two weeks ago when the LFS didn't have any salted RO so I used plain RO and used the same salt as the LFS and it tested at 1.023 with my Fluval crappy tester.

Nataleeia · Mar 24, 2023

dedragon said:
first things i always ask, Are you using tap water or rodi? Do you have a refractometer AND calibrations solution at 1.0264?

For future tank additions make sure you dont buy any more tangs. No tang should be in a 30 gallon tank.

I fully agree now. At the time, I was just a bit uninformed. I've done research since and I agree, fish should be kept in the environment that they are comfortable in. Trying to put a tang in that likes to swim miles per day is just plain cruel. I have realised the error of my ways

When I restock with new fish I am aiming to get all perfectly compatible tank mates, it doesn't matter what I think is pretty, it matters that the fish are healthy.

As for the water, answered in another response. RODI from LFS. I do have a refractometer but haven't used it yet, I had been relying on a fluval dipper thing that now I think was probably a stupid idea.

dedragon · Mar 24, 2023

salinity that low isnt ideal for corals or inverts in general. Do yourself a favor and throw out the swing arm hydrometer (fluval device). The problem with using ro water from a fish store is that you dont know how often they change their filters (if ever). For setting up a refractometer make sure to buy refractometer calibration solution at 1.0264.

you can also use a tds meter to check out how good the ro water from the lfs is. They cost about $20

dedragon · Mar 24, 2023

For test kits salifert and red sea pro(make sure to get the pros when possible) make nice affordable test kits, but dont have digital readings like hanna. I find hanna makes it easy to test things that are very low and specific like the ultra low range (ULR) phosphate tester. Api is a bit too inaccurate for most reefers.

The test kits you will need are only Nitrate, phosphate, calcium, and alkalinity. You can also get magnesium but its not as important as the others. Ammonia and nitrite are pointless to use after you are done cycling and will just make you stress for no reason

vetteguy53081 · Mar 24, 2023

Nataleeia said:
Hi all

New tank, new reef keeper. Done a lot of research so not just stabbing in the dark with it all. I do have some previous experience although relatively not too much.
30g tank, cycled it for 6 weeks, put some fish in with one cleaner shrimp.
We lost the first shrimp in a day and a few weeks later tried 2 more shrimp with the exact same behaviours, no movement, dead in hours/a day.
After a few weeks of fish being in tank and happy, I lost all fish to velvet within 24-48 hours. I did have a bit of white spot show up on one fish before the velvet outbreak that seemed to go away for a few weeks but then the velvet. Nothing new went in just before the velvet outbreak so we think it came from the original batch of fish but took time to colonise.
The fish were a regal tang, 2 clown fish, a royal gramma and a cleaner shrimp.

Currently tank is fallow after everything died and since its fallow I've been trying to get some corals going, but they are exhibiting very similar behaviour to the shrimp and dying pretty fast.

Only things I've managed to keep alive so far are a feather duster worm and a bunch of snails (3xturbo and 3xnassarius, but 1xturbo died within a few days very similar to the shrimps).

I'm kind of at a loss for what is actually going on. I've suspected it may be copper contamination due to a hose clip I used on the return pump (at the time, I thought stainless steel clips were a good idea to avoid rust but it appears that was a bad assumption) I have noticed the clip seems to have a blob of rust on it, I am going to be removing this clip later tonight and replacing with a cable tie.
I have done a copper test using an api test and it tested fine so it doesn't appear to be that, but its about all I can find in all my research around this topic. Overall this issue has been going on for a few months so I've been looking into it night and day and now I'm running out of ideas so needed to engage some experts.

I'll include a couple of pics of the tank, one of it looking OK with fish happy and one of it now. By the way, light has changed between the pics, was running an included light that came with the tank when just fish were in but when I got corals I got an AI prime 16HD which I believe I read would be suitable for my 80cmx40cm 120L tank.

I have lots more info, params etc, pictures, videos etc but rather than overload you all with info, I'll try and keep it simple for now and go from there.

Thank you for your time, I welcome and really appreciate any and all feedback.

Nat x

Tang is not a good starter fish and your tank is still going through chemistry changes and Can you provide a closer pic of tank under white lighting ?
Fast breathing does not notate this is velvet but is one of the signs as well as with ick, flukes and injury.
What behaviors with fish did you notice prior to loss such as loss of appetite, lethargic behavior, swimming front of powerheads, clamped fins, etc?
How did you establish this was velvet?
API copper test is one of the worse and may have given false reading and overdose is a possibility. Invest in Hanna copper kit.

Sharkbait19 · Mar 24, 2023

Was the tang sleeping up by the powerhead or actively swimming into the flow?
Hanging out in a corner tends to be a stress response (especially from aggression), but actually swimming into the current is a symptom of diseases.

mnl119 · Mar 24, 2023

Nataleeia said:
Awesome, I will grab some of those ratcheting clamps, thank you

As I mentioned in the reply above, I've noticed the general thoughts of api tests. What is the most cost effective testing I could do? I'm happy to invest a bit of money where it makes sense, like the ph pen I bought, just makes sense for accuracy. But if I can save some cost with some of it, why not, I have seen the hanna instrument readers seem to be the go to for everyone but I have also noticed they are about £80 each and I'd need about 6 or so But over time, happy to do it if that's whats needed to get the environment perfect.

Thank you for reminding me about salinity. I actually haven't been recording it too well as I was using one of those fluval dip tester things but it seems awful, it fluctuated like crazy so I bought a refractometer although I'll admit, I haven't used it yet. The Fluval was testing around 1.024 though when the fish were in there although as I say, it seemed to bounce around a bit before settling, I was never convinced by it.
For the initial setup I used salted RO water from my LFS, for top ups I have used unsalted RO water from my LFS and water changes again salted RO from my LFS apart from one time two weeks ago when the LFS didn't have any salted RO so I used plain RO and used the same salt as the LFS and it tested at 1.023 with my Fluval crappy tester.

My experience with hydrometers is that they read about 0.03 low compared to my calibrated refractometer measurements. They are subject to bubbles throwing off the reading. If you are measuring 1.024 with the hydrometer, you're probably close enough to rule that out. I get about 1.019 for my FOWLR from the hydrometer when the calibrated refractometer reads 1.022.

As far as API goes, my API nitrate test reads 0-5 ppm for my reef tank. It's hard to be more definitive because the colors for the different levels are so similar. My Red Sea says it's about 20 ppm, which I have a little more confidence in. My API copper reads about 1 ppm when I add the proper amount of Coppersafe to the FOWLR when treating diseases. I think it's supposed to read 2 ppm under these circumstances.

If you are worried about copper, you can add some cupurasorb and that will take care of it.

Another thought... are you sure the tank is properly aerated? High CO2 levels may be an issue? This would probably show up as an inexplicably low pH. The pH pens also need to be calibrated. Most come with a solution standard for doing this.

BeanAnimal · Mar 24, 2023

6 week old tank and you are pouring livestock into it and planning to "restock".

Slow down. 1 SMALL hardy fish. A blue with yellow tail damsel (least aggressive of the damsel fish and hardy) or another HARDY easy to care for fish.

Buy better test kits. Salifert kits are great, but the Red Sea Pro are VERY easy to use. Esp for Alk, Ca and Mag. You really don't need those test right now though.

Take a water sample to a local fish store and have it checked to verify your results.

Slow down.

How are you checking salinity? Get a refractometer or even the silly Milwaukee digital seawater tester. Or BEST the tropic marin floating hydrometer. It is delicate but dead accurate.

Drip acclimation is not needed. The 20% at at time water change method is fine.

Never drip acclimate inverts like shrimp or snails, esp if they have been in a bag for a long time. Opening the bag and trying to drip acclimate them can locally spike ammonia in the acclimation container.

Glass lids are not ideal. They prevent gas exchange, esp in a low flow tank. If you are worried about jumpers, get a mesh lid kit.

Slow down.

BeanAnimal · Mar 24, 2023

Sharkbait19 said:
Was the tang sleeping up by the powerhead or actively swimming into the flow?
Hanging out in a corner tends to be a stress response (especially from aggression), but actually swimming into the current is a symptom of diseases.

My Scopas tang (and coral beauty) spend all day swimming into then surfing the current back... and have for ~10 years (yes they are both that old).

Nataleeia · Mar 24, 2023

dedragon said:
salinity that low isnt ideal for corals or inverts in general. Do yourself a favor and throw out the swing arm hydrometer (fluval device). The problem with using ro water from a fish store is that you dont know how often they change their filters (if ever). For setting up a refractometer make sure to buy refractometer calibration solution at 1.0264.

you can also use a tds meter to check out how good the ro water from the lfs is. They cost about $20

I actually didn't realise I needed calibration solution for the refractometer, I will order some tomorrow, thank you. It seems I've been thinking I've been doing the testing OK but clearly I haven't so I will up my game here.

dedragon said:
For test kits salifert and red sea pro(make sure to get the pros when possible) make nice affordable test kits, but dont have digital readings like hanna. I find hanna makes it easy to test things that are very low and specific like the ultra low range (ULR) phosphate tester. Api is a bit too inaccurate for most reefers.

The test kits you will need are only Nitrate, phosphate, calcium, and alkalinity. You can also get magnesium but its not as important as the others. Ammonia and nitrite are pointless to use after you are done cycling and will just make you stress for no reason

I think for now I will get some of the salifert or red sea pro kits to keep me going until I can afford the Hanna readers. Like you say, digital reading is just that much more accurate and easy to read, it just makes sense in the long run. It's definitely the overall plan, just gonna take a bit of time for the funds, doing a lot on the house at the moment too so its typical timing

Thank you guys for all your help tonight so far, this is really really useful stuff, I'm gonna follow through on all of it

I really appreciate the advice

BeanAnimal · Mar 24, 2023

I would also highly recommend using a quarantined fish vendor like @Dr. Reef
The fish cost a bit more but... Well you already understand why.

LordofCinder · Mar 24, 2023

Stress is really the main culprit for fish disease, and stocking a new tank so fast, especially with a tang in a 30 gallon tank, is very stressful. Need to slow down, add one or two small fish and then wait 3-4 weeks before adding more, research 'suggested tank sizes' for fish, and their basic needs, before buying them. Its very important to be patient and go slow in this hobby. Lots of good advice above.

Nataleeia · Mar 24, 2023

BeanAnimal said:
6 week old tank and you are pouring livestock into it and planning to "restock".

Slow down. 1 SMALL hardy fish. A blue with yellow tail damsel (least aggressive of the damsel fish and hardy) or another HARDY easy to care for fish.

Buy better test kits. Salifert kits are great, but the Red Sea Pro are VERY easy to use. Esp for Alk, Ca and Mag. You really don't need those test right now though.

Take a water sample to a local fish store and have it checked to verify your results.

Slow down.

How are you checking salinity? Get a refractometer or even the silly Milwaukee digital seawater tester. Or BEST the tropic marin floating hydrometer. It is delicate but dead accurate.

Drip acclimation is not needed. The 20% at at time water change method is fine.

Never drip acclimate inverts like shrimp or snails, esp if they have been in a bag for a long time. Opening the bag and trying to drip acclimate them can locally spike ammonia in the acclimation container.

Glass lids are not ideal. They prevent gas exchange, esp in a low flow tank. If you are worried about jumpers, get a mesh lid kit.

Slow down.

I'm not sure I came across correctly. So we started the tank around the 1st January. When we started it, we spoke to the LFS and told them about our quite old previous experience of reef keeping and we knew tanks had to be cycled for a long time at first, but the guy at the LFS convinced us that it is no longer necessary for this if using some bacterial starting product that the name escapes me right now, we did a bit of research at the time and all signs pointed to this being OK. Sounds like maybe this was bad advice.
First 4 fish (2xclown, 1xroyal gramma, 1xregal tang) and 1 shrimp went in on the 3rd Feb. 2nd shrimp (1st was dead and gone) and 1xyellow watchman goby went in 24th feb, 3rd shrimp (1st and 2nd dead and gone) went in 26th feb. Everything was dead by 28th feb, fallow ever since. Planning on staying fallow for 6 weeks once we are sure we know what killed the shrimps, but theres been no live fish in there for about 4 weeks now so hopefully velvet is on its way out, but either way, we will continue to fallow for 6 weeks after we've found our cause of shrimp death. Unless you think this should be longer...and as far as restock, I do plan on going slowly, whatever is needed. I'm in no rush here, I only did the things I did previously as I got advice to the contrary. But I didn't get on forums and ask the real experts, that was a mistake and I've learnt from this.

The story around the shrimp is, we thought it may of been getting attacked by the Royal Gramma. We spoke to our LFS about it after the second death and they said they'd heard possible mentions of Gramma's attacking shrimps and wanted us to try a 3rd shrimp to make sure the Gramma was not attacking the shrimp. The Gramma was not attacking the shrimp, we're pretty certain of that now.

They had only been in the bags for about an hour tops, straight from LFS to home.

Good shout on the glass lid, it's something we hadn't considered. The sump section at the back is uncovered but fair enough thats not a huge surface area so quite likely not enough. I've just taken off the lid for now, to be honest, I hated how it got condensation on constantly because of the heated water.
I've thought about putting an air stone in the sump to help with aeration, do you think this is pointless to think?

dedragon · Mar 24, 2023

Nataleeia said:
First 4 fish (2xclown, 1xroyal gramma, 1xregal tang) and 1 shrimp went in on the 3rd Feb.

This is too many fish to add at once, especially if the tank was started with dry rock and bacteria. I would never trust this LFS after this as it looks like they just wanted to sell a bunch of fish, then have you come back later to buy more to replace the dead ones.

You have a protein skimmer in your back compartment so you should be fine for O2 exchange tbh, but i prefer net tops to glass as well