Lost all fish to Velvet, losing all shrimp and corals to I have no idea what

[Nataleeia]

OK firstly, you guys are SO fast to respond, its awesome! But I'm struggling to keep up This is by no means a complaint, I already love it here!

Fast breathing does not notate this is velvet but is one of the signs as well as with ick, flukes and injury.
What behaviors with fish did you notice prior to loss such as loss of appetite, lethargic behavior, swimming front of powerheads, clamped fins, etc?
How did you establish this was velvet?
API copper test is one of the worse and may have given false reading and overdose is a possibility. Invest in Hanna copper kit.

First sign was white spots on the tang, this got worse and was all over (we saw many comparisons with ich and it looked much more like velvet), this also ended up as slimy almost powdery kind of like mildew and this started affecting all of the fish in the same way eventually over about 48 hours. Prior to that, not too many of the symptoms you mentioned, but once it took hold, pretty much all of what you said, very lethargic behaviour, fast breathing, covered in the powdery stuff over their eyes and everything, swimming near flows, not sure on clamped fins. They were also rubbing on rocks and sand, looked like they were lying down at times.
So those signs as mentioned, watched a million youtube videos and googled like crazy, as far as we could tell, it was velvet. I'm trying to find if I actually took any pictures of them like it but I'm not sure I actually did where it went downhill so quick.

Was the tang sleeping up by the powerhead or actively swimming into the flow?
Hanging out in a corner tends to be a stress response (especially from aggression), but actually swimming into the current is a symptom of diseases.

Generally the tang slept by the flow (I won't say powerhead as we actually got a spray bar as the flow was rather well bloody powerful and we could never get the sand to stop digging up).
On the last day, I think all fish at some point tried swimming into the flow.
So it seems the tang was probably always stressed...30g tank, now I've learnt a bit more, I understand why.

If you are worried about copper, you can add some cupurasorb and that will take care of it.

Another thought... are you sure the tank is properly aerated? High CO2 levels may be an issue? This would probably show up as an inexplicably low pH. The pH pens also need to be calibrated. Most come with a solution standard for doing this.

Actually our plan was to get that stainless clip out and then dose with cuprasorb, we bought it a few days ago ready to use it when we got the clip out. Although we were hoping to get an icptest before then to confirm if there actually is copper. But I think at this stage, it won't hurt to do the cuprasorb just in case.

Actually aeration has been a possible suspect thats been on my mind. Originally as the powerhead was digging up the sand no matter where we aimed it we got a spray bar, but that may have been a bad idea.
The spray bar is also under water and we have considered whether this is a bad idea for oxygenating the water. But I also read somewhere skimmers oxygenate the water plenty and we have a skimmer.

Would an airstone help with this? From what I understand, I don't think air stones actually oxygenate do they? so probably not I guess. Or do we just need to get a powerhead going properly. We did add a wavemaker/powerhead thing recently to also try to help with this but this was more on the circulation side that we were trying to achieve with this.

Stress is really the main culprit for fish disease, and stocking a new tank so fast, especially with a tang in a 30 gallon tank, is very stressful. Need to slow down, add one or two small fish and then wait 3-4 weeks before adding more, research 'suggested tank sizes' for fish, and their basic needs, before buying them. Its very important to be patient and go slow in this hobby. Lots of good advice above.

Thank you, I agree.
I was under the impression velvet was a virus and so had to be carried in by a host and so wouldn't be caused by stress? Or is that wrong? I'm not trying to play devils advocate here, that's what I thought I'd read

 

[BeanAnimal]

The fact that they sold you that many fish for a new tank is bad enough. The fact they sold you a regal tang for a 30 is insane. Don’t trust another word they say. They are idiots.

 

[Nataleeia]

This is too many fish to add at once, especially if the tank was started with dry rock and bacteria. I would never trust this LFS after this as it looks like they just wanted to sell a bunch of fish, then have you come back later to buy more to replace the dead ones.

You have a protein skimmer in your back compartment so you should be fine for O2 exchange tbh, but i prefer net tops to glass as well

Don't get me wrong, I know most sales people want to sell. We've been going to this LFS quite a lot lately and one of the guys who we've been going to for advice, he genuinely seems really passionate about it, its clearly his hobby and he has the same tank we have, showed us lots of pictures etc. And also, there are plenty of people really passionate about their particular hobby who sound like they know what they are talking about but haven't got a clue But he really seemed informed and pretty good. It's so hard to know what and who to trust.

And to be fair to them, we haven't been back to replace dead fish to them. We replaced one shrimp from them explaining fully what happened and they didn't charge us for the replacement, they were intrigued if the gramma was being aggressive like we were at that time. We haven't replaced any dead fish. First fish to die was the Tang, all others were dead within 48 hours, tank has been fallow since. The LFS haven't been terrible here really I don't think. Perhaps not brilliantly informed in their advice though.

 

[vetteguy53081]

OK firstly, you guys are SO fast to respond, its awesome! But I'm struggling to keep up This is by no means a complaint, I already love it here!

First sign was white spots on the tang, this got worse and was all over (we saw many comparisons with ich and it looked much more like velvet), this also ended up as slimy almost powdery kind of like mildew and this started affecting all of the fish in the same way eventually over about 48 hours. Prior to that, not too many of the symptoms you mentioned, but once it took hold, pretty much all of what you said, very lethargic behaviour, fast breathing, covered in the powdery stuff over their eyes and everything, swimming near flows, not sure on clamped fins. They were also rubbing on rocks and sand, looked like they were lying down at times.
So those signs as mentioned, watched a million youtube videos and googled like crazy, as far as we could tell, it was velvet. I'm trying to find if I actually took any pictures of them like it but I'm not sure I actually did where it went downhill so quick.

Generally the tang slept by the flow (I won't say powerhead as we actually got a spray bar as the flow was rather well bloody powerful and we could never get the sand to stop digging up).
On the last day, I think all fish at some point tried swimming into the flow.
So it seems the tang was probably always stressed...30g tank, now I've learnt a bit more, I understand why.

Actually our plan was to get that stainless clip out and then dose with cuprasorb, we bought it a few days ago ready to use it when we got the clip out. Although we were hoping to get an icptest before then to confirm if there actually is copper. But I think at this stage, it won't hurt to do the cuprasorb just in case.

Actually aeration has been a possible suspect thats been on my mind. Originally as the powerhead was digging up the sand no matter where we aimed it we got a spray bar, but that may have been a bad idea.
The spray bar is also under water and we have considered whether this is a bad idea for oxygenating the water. But I also read somewhere skimmers oxygenate the water plenty and we have a skimmer.

Would an airstone help with this? From what I understand, I don't think air stones actually oxygenate do they? so probably not I guess. Or do we just need to get a powerhead going properly. We did add a wavemaker/powerhead thing recently to also try to help with this but this was more on the circulation side that we were trying to achieve with this.

Thank you, I agree.
I was under the impression velvet was a virus and so had to be carried in by a host and so wouldn't be caused by stress? Or is that wrong? I'm not trying to play devils advocate here, that's what I thought I'd read

A fish sleeping near water flow does not notate velvet and rarely aggression- They will hide before hanging near a flow if picked on. The signs I mentioned met the high probability and from this point forward and as you can imagine-
Your tank will have to be fishless for 6 weeks. Raise temp to 80 degrees during this 6 weeks.
Where do you go from here-
- This party is Not over- Every 3 days, add liquid bacteria such as Micro Bacter 7 at 1 ml per 10 gallons. It will allow the tank to mature and colonize denitrifiers.
- Set up a quarantine tank and use it for the future. It will alleviate what just happened and allow you to get a couple of fish to enjoy in the mean time and assure they are disease free Before entering your display tank

 

[Nataleeia]

The fact that they sold you that many fish for a new tank is bad enough. The fact they sold you a regal tang for a 30 is insane. Don’t trust another word they say. They are idiots.

They also didn't sell us that many fish. That shop sold us 1 regal tang, 1 royal gramma and 1 cleaner shrimp, ANOTHER LFS sold us 2 clown fish. The Goby was bought online about a month later.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You don’t need an air stone. Just good water flow.

 

[Nataleeia]

- Set up a quarantine tank and use it for the future. It will alleviate what just happened and allow you to get a couple of fish to enjoy in the mean time and assure they are disease free Before entering your display tank

A quarantine tank was the first item on our shopping list when velvet hit. We realised quite quickly why everybody in this hobby has a QT. We are just currently trying to figure out where to house a second tank, in our house We have a bit of a menagerie going on

 

[BeanAnimal]

They also didn't sell us that many fish. That shop sold us 1 regal tang, 1 royal gramma and 1 cleaner shrimp, ANOTHER LFS sold us 2 clown fish. The Goby was bought online about a month later.

If they knew it was a 30 then they are clueless. Also Royal Grammas can be very aggressive in a small tank.

Cleaner shrimp can also be a problem in small tanks. They tend to not do well and bother the same fish constantly due to small space and few options.

 

[BeanAnimal]

What is done is done. You are here and moving forward. Slow down. Get the fallow system ready as mentioned above. Get a qt setup and or have a quick conversation with @Dr. Reef

 

[vetteguy53081]

If they knew it was a 30 then they are clueless. Also Royal Grammas can be very aggressive in a small tank.

Cleaner shrimp can also be a problem in small tanks. They tend to not do well and bother the same fish constantly due to small space and few options.

That is, IF they were were aware. At My LFS, I always asked new/unfamiliar persons how they are doing, What size tank they had, how long they've been doing saltwater, etc
Some stores wont do this and if buyer doesnt mention, its fault of both.

 

[Nataleeia]

If they knew it was a 30 then they are clueless. Also Royal Grammas can be very aggressive in a small tank.

Cleaner shrimp can also be a problem in small tanks. They tend to not do well and bother the same fish constantly due to small space and few options.

Thats interesting about Grammas, we always thought he may be being aggressive, he kept so to himself. At first I did see him chase the Tang out of his cave but eventually that behaviour stopped well I think anyway.

Thats a disappointment about cleaner shrimp, we had read 30g minimum so thought it would be OK. I appreciate its minimum, but I thought well thats why its a minimum lol
What shrimps would be OK? We were hoping to get a pistol shrimp along with a watchman goby to hopefully get them paired up. But shrimps are great for cleaning which is where we were coming from there.

 

[dedragon]

Im with bean animal here, if that guy that had the same 30 gallon tank as you sold you a regal tang he is either clueless about fish care or was just wanting to make a sale. No one in the hobby that really cared about fish would ever sell a regal tang knowing it was going into such a small tank

 

[Nataleeia]

What is done is done. You are here and moving forward. Slow down. Get the fallow system ready as mentioned above. Get a qt setup and or have a quick conversation with @Dr. Reef

Unfortunately we are UK based so I don't think Dr Reef can help us, but I will see about UK based quarantined fish suppliers.

That is, IF they were were aware. At My LFS, I always asked new/unfamiliar persons how they are doing, What size tank they had, how long they've been doing saltwater, etc
Some stores wont do this and if buyer doesnt mention, its fault of both.

Totally it really does matter who you get. We went there a few days ago and the usual guy we see wasn't around and the person who helped us was honestly butt useless. He clearly didn't care or even partake in the hobby and when you're looking for advice, that's not what you need. I quickly decided he wasn't worth listening to.
Same as any trade to be fair, I work in IT, I've worked with quite a few IT guys that don't own a computer You couldn't make it up I swear

 

[dedragon]

What shrimps would be OK? We were hoping to get a pistol shrimp along with a watchman goby to hopefully get them paired up. But shrimps are great for cleaning which is where we were coming from there.

matters what shrimp you are talking about and what they will clean. Peppermint shrimp are great to eradicate pest anemones like aiptasia, pistol shrimp wont clean anything up but has an interesting relationship with gobies, while cleaner shrimp may pick some parasites and dead skin from fish, but they wont prevent every infection

 

[BeanAnimal]

Royal Grammas are shy and like their caves during the day. In a small tank they feel the need to defend the cave. In a small community tank this can be a problem.

a peppermint shrimp would be better suited.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Once well establish a pistol and goby pair and other small gobies are what you will want. No angels, tangs or other large fish.

 

[dedragon]

and even peppermint shrimp can go after corals so you have to watch them. Almost anything you add can both benefit or hurt the tank, sometimes just personality of individual fish/invert matter. I had a regal tang that liked to bite my acropora (bali slimer was its favorite), this hobby is complicated lol

 

[reefinatl]

Is that a store bought all in one tank, or did you build it?

 

[Nataleeia]

Is that a store bought all in one tank, or did you build it?

We bought it from a store as a kit but have swapped out most of the original parts it came with. In fact thinking about it, the only thing that came with it thats still in there is the bag of carbon and bag of I forget the name, like brownish reddish small granules. I read up on it at the time and pretty sure it was something beneficial. Always forget the name of this one.
Kit I have is: -

Tank: Aqua Manta Nano 80 (80cmx40cm nano 30g tank with built in sump at the back)
Light: AI Prime 16HD
Return Pump: Eheim CompactOn 3000
Skimmer: Bubble Magus QQ2
Heater: Aquatropic 50W (I originally had an Interpet 150W but found it hard to control properly so got the aquatropic and am keeping temps better)
Powerhead/wavemaker: AllPondSolutions WM2000

I have filter sponges and that cottony type media on top in the first section in the sump, skimmer in the next section, carbon, beneficial stuff and heater in the next section, return pump in the last section.

 

[reefinatl]

Reason for asking was to see if the wrong silicone was used. Orange pellet stuff is probably GFO. It'll take phosphates out.