Lost most of tank Marine Velvet

jendorae

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Hi, we have a 130 gallon established tank. We have had it for about 2 years now. We do have a weekly maintenance crew for the tank that handles dosing, cleaning, water changes, etc. Recently we purchased 2 tangs and a fox face from the company that performs our maintenance. They were to be quarantined with the purchaser for 2 weeks before being introduced to our tank. The new fish were brought a week later during maintenance and added to our tank. We had issues with our Domino Damsels when the new fish were introduced, we basically dismantled all of the live rock to catch the 2 problem domino damsels. Within two days the new Tangs and Fox Face died. Most of our existing fish including our clowns, mandarins, tangs, devil damsel, dottyback, pretty much everything began with what we thought was Ich, but appears more so now that we had Marine Velvet. Everything has died except Hippo tang and a six line wrasse. We are devastated. Our maintenance crew advised we caused the disease by stirring up the sand bed when catching the original Domino Damsels. Is it possible that we did cause the disease to wipe out our tank by moving the rock and stirring the bed when rock was moved?
 
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MnFish1

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Hi, we have a 130 gallon established tank. We have had it for about 2 years now. We do have a weekly maintenance crew for the tank that handles dosing, cleaning, water changes, etc. Recently we purchased 2 tangs and a fox face from the company that performs our maintenance. They were to be quarantined with the purchaser for 2 weeks before being introduced to our tank. The new fish were brought a week later during maintenance and added to our tank. We had issues with our Domino Damsels when the new fish were introduced, we basically dismantled all of the live rock to catch the 2 problem domino damsels. Within two days the new Tangs and Fox Face died. Most of our existing fish including our clowns, mandarins, tangs, devil damsel, dottyback, pretty much everything began with what we thought was Ich, but appears more so now that we had Marine Velvet. Everything has died except Hippo tang and a six line wrasse. We are devastated. Our maintenance crew advised we caused the disease by stirring up the sand bed when catching the original Domino Damsels. Is it possible that we did cause the disease to wipe out our tank by moving the rock and stirring the bed when rock was moved?
Its hard to answer without more information - but:

1. A 2 week QT period is long enough per the protocol we use here - did they medicate the fish?
2. How did your invertebrates, etc do? (i.e. if they also did poorly, a toxic issue rather than a parasite would seem more likely
3. Did you happen to measure ammonia, etc when this was happening.
4. Do you have any pictures.

To answer your question - if parasites are living in the tank - a stress to the fish can lead to an infectious outbreak - which then leads to sky-high numbers - and problems. Also dying fish cause numbers chemical changes in the tank as well. Sorry to hear this about your tank
 

Lavey29

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I agree with the above. Can't say definitively either way. The introduction of the new fish could have brought disease into your tank or the disease could have already been in the tank semi dormant and the stress event of the new fish coupled with the rock being moved around to catch the damsels triggered the disease to become active due to your fish immune systems weakened by the stress in the tank.
 
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jendorae

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Its hard to answer without more information - but:

1. A 2 week QT period is long enough per the protocol we use here - did they medicate the fish?
2. How did your invertebrates, etc do? (i.e. if they also did poorly, a toxic issue rather than a parasite would seem more likely
3. Did you happen to measure ammonia, etc when this was happening.
4. Do you have any pictures.

To answer your question - if parasites are living in the tank - a stress to the fish can lead to an infectious outbreak - which then leads to sky-high numbers - and problems. Also dying fish cause numbers chemical changes in the tank as well. Sorry to hear this about your tank
I believe it was a one week QT period, we had asked they wait until we removed the damsels. Invertebrates are good, all coral doing well, 2 nems doing fine. We did not measure ammonia ourselves, maintenance crew were here yesterday and last Thursday and measured parameters, did not advise an issue. I feel terribly that we likely caused the massive kill by moving the live rock. Such a costly mistake. Thank you for your reply.
 

MnFish1

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I believe it was a one week QT period, we had asked they wait until we removed the damsels. Invertebrates are good, all coral doing well, 2 nems doing fine. We did not measure ammonia ourselves, maintenance crew were here yesterday and last Thursday and measured parameters, did not advise an issue. I feel terribly that we likely caused the massive kill by moving the live rock. Such a costly mistake. Thank you for your reply.
Note - I didn't mean to suggest that you killed the fish by moving the rock. If the fish were only quarantined (without medication) for a week - IMHO - the likelihood is that a new parasite (velvet, ich, etc) was introduced - and exponentially grew due to the stress. If, on the other hand - the fish store medicated the fish - or got them from a QT'd source, that is likely. I might ask them if they use copper in their tanks
 
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jendorae

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Note - I didn't mean to suggest that you killed the fish by moving the rock. If the fish were only quarantined (without medication) for a week - IMHO - the likelihood is that a new parasite (velvet, ich, etc) was introduced - and exponentially grew due to the stress. If, on the other hand - the fish store medicated the fish - or got them from a QT'd source, that is likely. I might ask them if they use copper in their tanks
They did QT for 1 week with copper prior to moving the new guys to our tank. I guess it is very difficult to know what exactly happened. I cannot believe our year old Hippo Tang survived so far, but is still flashing. The maintenance crew told their store owner when they brought the new fish in 2 weeks ago, they noticed our Hippo had some ich spots which we had not seen, but they had already added the new fish. Just a mess!
 
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MnFish1

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They did QT for 1 week with copper prior to moving the new guys to our tank. I guess it is very difficult to know what exactly happened. I cannot believe our year old Hippo Tang survived so far, but is still flashing. The maintenance crew told their store owner when they brought the new fish in 2 weeks ago, they noticed our Hippo had some ich spots which we had not seen, but they had already added the new fish. Just a mess!
Oh - thats too bad. So - I take it that the maintenance company does not guarantee their fish? I don't remember - how did the damsels do? The Hippo may have partial immunity - especially - if they indeed saw spots. That said - I might mention to the owner of the store - that - if they noticed spots on your fish - they perhaps could have advised you to re-quarantine the new fish, and treat the old fish with copper for 30 days. Then leave your tank fallow. I know - this is too little too late - but just a comment
 
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jendorae

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Oh - thats too bad. So - I take it that the maintenance company does not guarantee their fish? I don't remember - how did the damsels do?
No, they do not guarantee the fish, although did say they would assist in replacing some of them once the time is right to do so. The 2 domino damsels perished as well.
 
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exnisstech

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Definatly not your fault. I'm not blaming anyone but I have serious doubts that tearing out rock to catch the evil domino damsels (been there done that) caused it. I can't remember how many times I've had to completely remove all rock to catch fish with no I'll effects on the other fish.

On a side note unless your schedule forbids it maybe study up and consider performing your own maintenance and testing. It has its challenges but the rewards are greater IMO
 

jmichaelh7

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What happens to QT copper therapeutic levels at 30 days?….. 2 weeks? 1 week???

either way I’m sorry for your loss. Do you have pics of what the fish looked like prior to dying? Possibly identifying marine velvet
 
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jkcoral

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Really sorry to hear about your loss of your fish. That is sad, and I hope you don’t end up giving up on the hobby.

For what is worth, I have a friend experience the same awful outbreak about 3 months ago. He had purchased a new sailfin tang, the only new addition to his tank in many months, and within 4 days every fish he owned had lost the battle :/

From what you describe, I would bet on the new additions introducing it into the system.

I am really bummed to hear this happening to another reefer, and I hope your tank can bounce back healthy and happy.
 

MnFish1

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What happens to QT copper therapeutic levels at 30 days?….. 2 weeks? 1 week???

either way I’m sorry for your loss. Do you have pics of what the fish looked like prior to dying? Possibly identifying marine velvet
Can you explain what you mean? its variable for every QT tank. It depends on how much water is changed, etc. The main point is that you want to follow the recommendations with levels from whichever product you're using.

The lifecycle of Cryptocaryon suggests that 30 days is they proper timeframe. Before that - there is a risk of reinfection.
 

MnFish1

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Really sorry to hear about your loss of your fish. That is sad, and I hope you don’t end up giving up on the hobby.

For what is worth, I have a friend experience the same awful outbreak about 3 months ago. He had purchased a new sailfin tang, the only new addition to his tank in many months, and within 4 days every fish he owned had lost the battle :/

From what you describe, I would bet on the new additions introducing it into the system.

I am really bummed to hear this happening to another reefer, and I hope your tank can bounce back healthy and happy.
I don't think there is a way to know - IMHO - its more likely (given the history of the tang thats left had spots before the new fish were put in) - that the new fish - developed 'whatever' - and as it tends to do in tanks exponentially increased. Of course - a week of copper in the LFS - could have 'hidden' any infection - when it was removed - the infection happened.

To the OP - again I would question your maintenance service as to why they recommend 1 week of QT - and why they recommended that their fish not be quarantined when they arrived to your house.
 

JGT

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Can you explain what you mean? its variable for every QT tank. It depends on how much water is changed, etc. The main point is that you want to follow the recommendations with levels from whichever product you're using.

The lifecycle of Cryptocaryon suggests that 30 days is they proper timeframe. Before that - there is a risk of reinfection.
I think OP was referring to what you said in your first reply that a 2 week QT protocol is long enough.
 

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Hi, we have a 130 gallon established tank. We have had it for about 2 years now. We do have a weekly maintenance crew for the tank that handles dosing, cleaning, water changes, etc. Recently we purchased 2 tangs and a fox face from the company that performs our maintenance. They were to be quarantined with the purchaser for 2 weeks before being introduced to our tank. The new fish were brought a week later during maintenance and added to our tank. We had issues with our Domino Damsels when the new fish were introduced, we basically dismantled all of the live rock to catch the 2 problem domino damsels. Within two days the new Tangs and Fox Face died. Most of our existing fish including our clowns, mandarins, tangs, devil damsel, dottyback, pretty much everything began with what we thought was Ich, but appears more so now that we had Marine Velvet. Everything has died except Hippo tang and a six line wrasse. We are devastated. Our maintenance crew advised we caused the disease by stirring up the sand bed when catching the original Domino Damsels. Is it possible that we did cause the disease to wipe out our tank by moving the rock and stirring the bed when rock was moved?
Something very similar happened with me. I found Ick on my Scopas Tang. I had two juvenile Vlamingii Tang and I had to give it away to my friend. To catch those two I disturbed my sand bed and my rocks. My maintenance guy said Ick might have happened because I disturbed my sand bed. I don’t really know what’s right and what’s wrong however it had to happen and it happened. Am treating my fish in my QT now and I will move inwards. We learn each day whilst we reef. Sorry to hear about your loss.
 

MnFish1

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I think OP was referring to what you said in your first reply that a 2 week QT protocol is long enough.
Right - but then explained that it was only a 1 week QT - and - in any case - my answer would be the same:). And the person asking the question was not the OP
 
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Hi, we have a 130 gallon established tank. We have had it for about 2 years now. We do have a weekly maintenance crew for the tank that handles dosing, cleaning, water changes, etc. Recently we purchased 2 tangs and a fox face from the company that performs our maintenance. They were to be quarantined with the purchaser for 2 weeks before being introduced to our tank. The new fish were brought a week later during maintenance and added to our tank. We had issues with our Domino Damsels when the new fish were introduced, we basically dismantled all of the live rock to catch the 2 problem domino damsels. Within two days the new Tangs and Fox Face died. Most of our existing fish including our clowns, mandarins, tangs, devil damsel, dottyback, pretty much everything began with what we thought was Ich, but appears more so now that we had Marine Velvet. Everything has died except Hippo tang and a six line wrasse. We are devastated. Our maintenance crew advised we caused the disease by stirring up the sand bed when catching the original Domino Damsels. Is it possible that we did cause the disease to wipe out our tank by moving the rock and stirring the bed when rock was moved?
While I dsagree with stirring of sand as a trigger as we all one time or another have done such without loss, velvet is often a silent killer and un-noticed until its too late however, if iy was velvet, there are tell-tale signs you would have noticed such as:

- Scratching body against hard objects
- Fish is lethargic
- Loss of appetite and weight loss
- Rapid, labored breathing
- Fins clamped against the body
- rapid breathing and mucus around the gills

Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. This is one of the many reasons for quarantine and you can set up a QT now and address it or an option which is NOT 100% but often works is a reef safe product . . Ruby Rally PRO which often works as long its not prolonged velvet
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hi, we have a 130 gallon established tank. We have had it for about 2 years now. We do have a weekly maintenance crew for the tank that handles dosing, cleaning, water changes, etc. Recently we purchased 2 tangs and a fox face from the company that performs our maintenance. They were to be quarantined with the purchaser for 2 weeks before being introduced to our tank. The new fish were brought a week later during maintenance and added to our tank. We had issues with our Domino Damsels when the new fish were introduced, we basically dismantled all of the live rock to catch the 2 problem domino damsels. Within two days the new Tangs and Fox Face died. Most of our existing fish including our clowns, mandarins, tangs, devil damsel, dottyback, pretty much everything began with what we thought was Ich, but appears more so now that we had Marine Velvet. Everything has died except Hippo tang and a six line wrasse. We are devastated. Our maintenance crew advised we caused the disease by stirring up the sand bed when catching the original Domino Damsels. Is it possible that we did cause the disease to wipe out our tank by moving the rock and stirring the bed when rock was moved?
Sorry, I missed your post….

First, welcome to Reef2Reef!

Stirring the sand won’t cause disease issues like that. Ich and fluke eggs can both have a resting stage in the substrate and is probably what they were referring to, but stirring it won’t make that more infective. If you really stirred things up you can stress the fish out though.
Copper should be dosed for 30 days, never less than 14 days though.
Jay
 

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