Lymphocystis or Ich on my Royal Gramma?

[Tuna Melt]

Hi all, I added a small Royal Gramma to my display on Saturday. it looked fine in the store but yesterday I notice a few pale spots on his fins. His tail fin is battered and torn and I thought (prayed) it could just be the striations healing or something. Today I don’t think so. I can’t definitively say if the spots are more noticeable today or if I just subconsciously discarded the notion that ignorance is bliss and have decided to face the music. Regardless I’m pretty worried, I’m not sure if it’s Lymphocystis or Ich or something more sinister. It’s been eating well, a combination of Mysis soaked in Selcon and LRS Frenzy. My cleaner shrimp has also paid special attention to him, following him around the tank like a shadow. I hardly ever see my cleaner shrimp service the other fish. See below for pictures and videos, all advice, expertise and opinions are greatly appreciated!

FYI I did not quarantine. I know that’s irresponsible but the misses would only sign off on a single tank in our small NYC apartment. That being said, maybe I could persuade her for a hospitalization tank if it’s serious. Kind of an “ask for forgiveness not permission” thing.

 

[To(meany)Tang]

Looks like ich to me.

 

[vetteguy53081]

This appears to be lymphocystis but before concluding, see if the dots are the same or have multiplied by mid day tomorrow.
Assure ammonia and nitrate are not elevated

 

[Tuna Melt]

Looks like ich to me.

This appears to be lymphocystis but before concluding, see if the dots are the same or have multiplied by mid day tomorrow.
Assure ammonia and nitrate are not elevated

Thank you both for the quick responses. With the utmost respect, @To(meany)Tang I hope your wrong ! @vetteguy53081 understood and will do. I’ll break out the test kits now. Any other ways to differentiate? As of Sunday, here were my water parameters:

Salinity: 35
PH: 8.1
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 15
Phosphates .09
Alk: 7.1
Mag: 1180
Call: 422

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you both for the quick responses. With the utmost respect, @To(meany)Tang I hope your wrong ! @vetteguy53081 understood and will do. I’ll break out the test kits now. Any other ways to differentiate? As of Sunday, here were my water parameters:

Salinity: 35
PH: 8.1
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 15
Phosphates .09
Alk: 7.1
Mag: 1180
Call: 422

With those numbers- are you using api tests?

 

[Tuna Melt]

With those numbers- are you using api tests?

Hanna Checkers for Calcium, Alkalinity, and Phosphates, Redsea for the rest. Perhaps I had a major precipitation event (or a bad bucket of Salt) when I first set up my tank two months ago. Calc, alk, and Mag have always been lower than the blue bucket advertised. I recently began dosing to try and drag them up to par before I add stony coral.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hanna Checkers for Calcium, Alkalinity, and Phosphates, Redsea for the rest. Perhaps I had a major precipitation event (or a bad bucket of Salt) when I first set up my tank two months ago. Calc, alk, and Mag have always been lower than the blue bucket advertised. I recently began dosing to try and drag them up to par before I add stony coral.

Bad salt is a maybe
I would mix a small batch of water and have an LFS that does not use API test for you and see what readings they come up with for comparison

 

[Tuna Melt]

Bad salt is a maybe
I would mix a small batch of water and have an LFS that does not use API test for you and see what readings they come up with for comparison

Sounds like I got homework this weekend !
When I first tested my alkalinity it was 6.5 dKH but by then I was on my second bucket. I tested the second bucket and it was 8.0 as advertised. The levels creep up proportionally with every water change.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sounds like I got homework this weekend !
When I first tested my alkalinity it was 6.5 dKH but by then I was on my second bucket. I tested the second bucket and it was 8.0 as advertised. The levels creep up proportionally with every water change.

This sounds familiar and one of the reasons I moved on from Red Sea

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi all, I added a small Royal Gramma to my display on Saturday. it looked fine in the store but yesterday I notice a few pale spots on his fins. His tail fin is battered and torn and I thought (prayed) it could just be the striations healing or something. Today I don’t think so. I can’t definitively say if the spots are more noticeable today or if I just subconsciously discarded the notion that ignorance is bliss and have decided to face the music. Regardless I’m pretty worried, I’m a noob and am not sure if it’s Lymphocystis or Ich or something more sinister. It’s been eating well, a combination of Mysis soaked in Selcon and LRS Frenzy. My cleaner shrimp has also paid special attention to him, following him around the tank like a shadow. I hardly ever see my cleaner shrimp service the other fish. See below for pictures and videos, all advice, expertise and opinions are greatly appreciated!

FYI I did not quarantine. I know that’s irresponsible but the misses would only sign off on a single tank in our small NYC apartment. That being said, maybe I could probably persuade her for a hospitalization tank if it’s serious. Kind of an “ask for forgiveness not permission” thing.

That looks like either ich, or broken fin rays (aligning with the tail damage seen on the fish). Lymphocystis more often appears on the trailing edges of the fins, but royal grammas are one of the most often fish to get that issue.

First thing - did the fish have damaged fins before you got it, or did that develop in your tank? If the latter, you'll need to figure out what caused that.

then, for the possibility of it being ich - if the spots come and go, change location but gradually tend to increase in number of the next few days, then it is probably ich. If the same spots are in the same location after 2 to 3 days, then they are probably just broken fin rays. You can use your pictures as a reference.

Hopefully it isn't ich, as your treatment options are limited without a treatment tank, you'll need to separate the fish from the invertebrates.

Jay

 

[Tuna Melt]

That looks like either ich, or broken fin rays (aligning with the tail damage seen on the fish). Lymphocystis more often appears on the trailing edges of the fins, but royal grammas are one of the most often fish to get that issue.

First thing - did the fish have damaged fins before you got it, or did that develop in your tank? If the latter, you'll need to figure out what caused that.

then, for the possibility of it being ich - if the spots come and go, change location but gradually tend to increase in number of the next few days, then it is probably ich. If the same spots are in the same location after 2 to 3 days, then they are probably just broken fin rays. You can use your pictures as a reference.

Hopefully it isn't ich, as your treatment options are limited without a treatment tank, you'll need to separate the fish from the invertebrates.

Jay

Thanks Jay. He had the damaged fins when I got him. At the LFS he was in a tank with a bunch of other large fellas.
Here is a picture from Saturday. Apologies for the poor quality, this is a screen shot from a video I took when I first grabbed him. The largest spot on the bottom of his tail fin is pretty visible but the other smaller spots are not. The smaller spots you can only really see when the tank lights are on. I only run my lights for two hours a day since I don’t have coral yet and don’t want to give any nasty photosynthetics a foothold. Therefor I don’t really know if those smaller spots were there on Saturday when I got him. This morning the same spots are present.

On another note, do cleaner shrimp go after Ich? My cleaner is clearly trying to get at whatever these are. Hes fallen head over head for the Gramma.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You’ll have to track those spots yourself, just look at a picture taken from the same vantage each day and compare them.

Cleaner shrimp mostly feed on larger parasites. They may eat some ich trophonts, but not in numbers to actually cure the disease in the fish. The shrimp’s cleaning behavior is also based on the fish wanting to be cleaned and then posturing in front of the shrimp.
Jay

 

[Tuna Melt]

Unfortunately it’s looking like Ich. I just got home and there seem to be a few more spots this evening and even a few on it’s head. It’s continuing to move around and eat normally but it’s only day 3 or 4. I’m researching courses of action live time but would like to hear your opinions.
Candidly the girlfriend is very against the idea of a hospital tank. My tank is newly set up with no coral. I have two Chromis, two clown gobies, one high fin red banded goby, and the infamous Royal Gramma. I also have a skunk cleaner shrimp, a blood red fire shrimp, and a randalls pistol shrimp. I’m debating if I should try pulling the Gramma out but at this stage the tank is infected. I suppose I really have two options, (I) wait it out and provide the lowest stress environment possible, or (II) remove the inverts and treat in the display. I love my shrimp and above all else am concerned introducing medications and copper into my display so I’m really leaning against that option.

 

[Tuna Melt]

I think I have to go the management route, I'm simply not winning the conversation about a few hospital tanks. Here is my plan:

Nutrition:
Feed LRS
Selcon Soaked Mysis
Frozen Clam (that I purchase live and freeze myself)
Potentially culturing white worms (the last two are an ode to Paul B)

Managment:
Installing a small UV (my sump is packed to the gills already)
Potentially H202 dosing..

I'm thinking of holding off on the H202 dosing and UV for a week to be certain it is Ick. I didn't see the Gramma this morning before I went to work so no update on the spots since last night. Any thoughts @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

 

[vetteguy53081]

I think I have to go the management route, I'm simply not winning the conversation about a few hospital tanks. Here is my plan:

Nutrition:
Feed LRS
Selcon Soaked Mysis
Frozen Clam (that I purchase live and freeze myself)
Potentially culturing white worms (the last two are an ode to Paul B)

Managment:
Installing a small UV (my sump is packed to the gills already)
Potentially H202 dosing..

I'm thinking of holding off on the H202 dosing and UV for a week to be certain it is Ick. I didn't see the Gramma this morning before I went to work so no update on the spots since last night. Any thoughts @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Any updated pics showing change on fish?
Peroxide wont do much. UV will prevent any new and address free floating protozoans from thriving but not the existing ones reverting to need for treatment in a separate tank.

 

[Tuna Melt]

I'll take some more pics when I get home from work, he was hiding this morning so could not grab any. Maybe I could ask my LFS to quarantine the fish for me but I'm skeptical, any advice for going the management route?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'll take some more pics when I get home from work, he was hiding this morning so could not grab any. Maybe I could ask my LFS to quarantine the fish for me but I'm skeptical, any advice for going the management route?

Peroxide is a bit risky. I won't dose it without having low dose test strips on hand. the reason is that it is just like ozone and other oxidizers - the amount of free oxidants in the water is only partially related to the dose - once the oxidant has reacted with organics in the tank, less will be broken down with each dose, potentially causing an overdose situation.

People need to be aware that this is an experimental treatment, and the test cases are the people trying it. I've been criticized for "not accepting" this new idea, but the reality is, I've worked with oxidants in aquariums since 1989 and it is the people testing with other people's fish who need to be criticized (grin).

Remember that a good diet can help boost a fish's immune system to some degree, but once the disease starts, the best diet in the world won't cure them (think of mom's chicken soup when you have a cold, you may feel better, but it will still take 5 days or so for the symptoms to go away).

An oversized UV can have some benefit with ich management, as can nightly siphoning the bottom of the tank to try and reduce the number of resting tomonts that fall off the fish and land there.


Jay

 

[Tuna Melt]

Any updated pics showing change on fish?
Peroxide wont do much. UV will prevent any new and address free floating protozoans from thriving but not the existing ones reverting to need for treatment in a separate tank.

Here are some pictures from this evening. The spots around his head are difficult to capture. The spots are quite small, I have no experiences with these diseases but If velvet spots are smaller I’m not sure how folks can see them. Makes ya wonder… but I supposed if it was velvet I would have losses by now.

 

[Tuna Melt]

Here are some pictures from this evening. The spots around his head are difficult to capture. The spots are quite small, I have no experiences with these diseases but If velvet spots are smaller I’m not sure how folks can see them. Makes ya wonder… but I supposed if it was velvet I would have losses by now.

Here are a few that kind of show his head spots

 

[Tuna Melt]

Peroxide is a bit risky. I won't dose it without having low dose test strips on hand. the reason is that it is just like ozone and other oxidizers - the amount of free oxidants in the water is only partially related to the dose - once the oxidant has reacted with organics in the tank, less will be broken down with each dose, potentially causing an overdose situation.

People need to be aware that this is an experimental treatment, and the test cases are the people trying it. I've been criticized for "not accepting" this new idea, but the reality is, I've worked with oxidants in aquariums since 1989 and it is the people testing with other people's fish who need to be criticized (grin).

Remember that a good diet can help boost a fish's immune system to some degree, but once the disease starts, the best diet in the world won't cure them (think of mom's chicken soup when you have a cold, you may feel better, but it will still take 5 days or so for the symptoms to go away).

An oversized UV can have some benefit with ich management, as can nightly siphoning the bottom of the tank to try and reduce the number of resting tomonts that fall off the fish and land there.


Jay

Understood thanks Jay, I’ll do all I can. I likely cannot fit a 25w UV (even an 18 is a stretch) and I’ve heard conflicting reports of whether or not smaller sizes provide enough of a UV dose to really be effective. I’m even starting to reconsider the UV. What might be the nail in the coffin is this table from Fresh By Design that basically states their 18w and 25w models cannot provide a strong enough dose to eliminate white spots. I know other companies claim their UV’s can at the same wattage but at the end of the day the only other variable is throughput. Maybe they can with the water moving through at 10 gph but who knows how effective that will be. Going to try and find a formula to calculate the required dose so I can do the math and figure out if a 25W is plausible.