Magnesium too low, will not raise

Discussion in 'ATI Aquaristik' started by Rakie, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Here's the problem: My tank is either using ungodly amounts of magnesium, or it's precipitating out.

    Magnesium has been dropping lower, and lower, for months. After a lot of dosing after starting ATI, I finally got it to 1305 -- , only 6 days later, it is now 1230. I'm dosing ungodly amounts of Magnesium, including 12 ounces of Mag from Brightwell Aquatics on top of my daily dose from ATI.

    Is ATI causing precipitation with my other Magnesium products? Why is my magnesium not stable?

    [​IMG]

    Tank 50 gallons volume

    Dosing 60ml Alk, 100ml Calcium, 100ml Alkalinity.

    Alk 8.3, Calcium 440, Mag 1230 and dropping
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
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  2. FlyinBryan

    FlyinBryan Well-Known Member

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    What's your salinity? Are you running Kalk or dosing with it?
     
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  3. theMeat

    theMeat Active Member

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    Growing algae consumes magnesium. So if you have a big fuge or algae turf scrubber, that's one place to consider for consumption.
     
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  4. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Thank you kindly gents.

    1.026, just running ATI Elements.

    No fuge or ATS, also my tank is extremely light on algae -- Just had a large clutch of Trochus snails.
     
  5. theMeat

    theMeat Active Member

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    Personally would get mag up a lil over the top to 1400 or so and keep it there for a while to saturate the tank. Thinking maybe with long term low levels whatever you dose is getting absorbed

    When magnesium is low it slows or stops bonding of calcium, alkaline, and slows corals ability to consume it. So even if calcium and alkaline are in good range the coral cannot use it effectively. Once you get magnesium up calcium and magnesium will get used faster, and you should see better coral growth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
  6. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    That's the problem, I'm trying to get it to pass 1300. I'm wondering if it's something in ATI causing a form of precipitation, or some other issue.

    Dosing brightwell (on top of my ATI) I was 'raising' mg by 40ppm per day, but testing showed an increase of Zero. I posted in the chemical forums and everyone just said "You can't be using that much, your test is bad" -- Test isn't bad, confirmed on 3 test kits at 3 locations, Mag is just dropping. I dosed enough Brightwell Aquatics to increase my ppm by 155, the increase came up by what looks like 30-40ppm, then back down.

    If it's being used, it's being used at unprecedented levels from what i've been told.
     
  7. theMeat

    theMeat Active Member

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    It does seem a lil much, but can tell you as you raise the mag level more gets used. All the trace elements you're adding effect each other. Get mag up over top for a while and things should settle in and level off

    Getting your ph up to around 8.2 with surface flow, and stabilizing it with maybe running a light on fuge on nighttime hours would likely, over time, help your cause as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
  8. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Yep, that's the plan. As you said, it just seems like way out of proportion. That's why I posted here, hoping ATI might say 'some other magnesium supplements won't mix with our system' or something along those lines. But I'll just continue monitoring the dosage to see what happens.
     
  9. theMeat

    theMeat Active Member

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    Yup. Using a cheaper quality magnesium, like Kent, might be a good idea to boost you up. Then use Brightwell to stabilize. Cheaper magnesium has more metals, so long term usage is not a good idea, but once in a while it's perfectly fine, probably beneficial.
     
  10. Macdaddynick1

    Macdaddynick1 Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Your test kit is bad, if you keep on adding it and the number does not change, I was getting an 1100 reading so I was dumping a ton of magnesium into my tank to raise it, my zoos were melting, which is usually a sign of a high magnesium. So I went to Vivid and asked them to check my Mag, I think it was over 2000 . They had to use a second syringe . I bought a new test kit, and tested it myself , got the same results, and stopped dosing. Took me a few months to drop my mag.
     
  11. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    FWIW, Brightwell had some misinformation on their site about how effective their product was (a crazy stupid mistake :D ). Hopefully that didn't translate to their bottles, but I at least got Jack Kent to fix their site when he took over.

    I don't want to beat a dead horse, since I already did so in your other thread :D , but for others reading only this thread, there are no substantial sinks for magnesium alone. It must always be accompanied by much bigger drops in calcium and alkalinity. :)
     
  12. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    If you read my first message -- Multiple test kits from multiple people confirm my test kit is not bad. Two salifert tests and a red sea test, by two other people, same results. Spot on with my tests. That's why I keep saying something is kinda funky, I was thinking maybe it was a magnesium precipitation issue or something.


    Gotcha, my Cal and Alk did drop significantly as well, but I've gotten those to turn around. My Cal dropped suddenly to 340 over the course of a week (things were humming along, so I was doing weekly testing then suddenly Cal was way down one week), and Alk also dropped significantly at some point, from a stable 8.6 to 6.9, also suddenly within a week after a good bit of stability.

    I was always told stuff like B-ionic would precipitate out with stuff that was not "ionically bonded". I was assuming that was incorrect as nobody really has those issues that I've seen. But it popped back into my mind.
     
  13. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    There's no issue using a product such as B-ionic. :)
     
  14. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Well then, I'll make sure to test this often, and double check with other test kits and see whats up. Hopefully it will straighten back out.
     
  15. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    The ATI Essentials system should be dosed in equal parts, it does not appear you are doing so.
     
  16. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I have uneven consumption of Alk/Cal/Mag. The information said upwards of a 25% difference in reagents was okay, but will eventually be corrected (or self-correct)

    Are you telling me lowering my Calcium and Magnesium to the level of my Alkalinity will raise my Magnesium?

    I'm currently dosing 70ml alkalinity, 100ml Calcium, and 100ml Magnesium, which is a 30% difference, 5% over.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
  17. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    Hello Rakie,

    That is not what I am saying, but I am trying to get a better understanding of why you are doing what you are doing. I would recommend doing 70ml of each Essentials products and do an ATI Labs test to confirm what you believe to be true. There must be something else going on here if you are dumping in massive amounts of magnesium and nothing is happening. Perhaps you are mixing your ATI Essentials incorrectly? Perhaps you miss read the dosing instructions on the Brightwell Mag? Raising your magnesium 40ppm per day would take a significant amount of any product even in a 45g tank.
     
  18. Rakie

    Rakie Federal Coral Reserve R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award SCMAS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Hello, I have mixed ATI to the instructions as follows
    - 82.5g elements #1 per L of water
    - 100ml elements #2, #3 per 900ml

    I mixed for several minutes, it seemed to mix VERY quickly.

    My Alkalinity fluctuated a LOT at first and went a up to 9.3, I lowered dose and it dropped to 8.3 over a week, and is slowly being increased now and is remaining stable at 8.3.

    Magnesium and Calcium are being used at a much higher rate. If I lower my calcium and magnesium I will only achieve lower numbers in parameters that are already dropping.

    Current Dosage

    - With #1 at 70ml I'm maintaining 8.3 Alk
    - With #2, and #3 at 100ml I'm maintaining 430 calcium, and 1260 magnesium.

    The Brightwell was very simple -- 1ml per gallon raises Magnesium 24ppm. Unless the bottle was wrong, there was nothing to misinterpret.

    I know you will say to mix all 10L of elements at once, but this is not possible for me to do so. Additionally, it's extremely hard to find containers labeled in Liters here in the US that are accurate. I would need to grab some 3 gallon containers to mix the product up in, and I can't store three containers of that size where I live. SO I mix up 3 Liters at a time.
     
  19. ATI North America

    ATI North America Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    Rakie a few things to mention.

    You appear to have the ATI Essentials calculations correct. So long as you are measuring accurately it should be great.

    ATI recommends alkalinity remain between 7-8, you are above this but obviously not by much.

    Maybe Randy can chime in, but consuming Ca and Mg that much in excess is highly unusual. Do you have an unusual mix of coral? I still feel like there is more to the story going on here since Mg consumption is typically very nominal.

    Regarding the Brightwell, while there may not be much to misinterpret, you can certainly still plenty of room for math errors.

    I found at Home Depot a graduated 7L bucket in the paint section. I use this to measure 5L at a time (first pour in your ATI Essentials bottle, then top up to 5L), add a second round of straight 5L of RODI and thrown them into a 5gal bucket.
     
  20. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    On their web site they claimed Magnesion P had a Guaranteed Analysis of 43% magnesium, with a similarly incorrect magnesium boost per gram.

    They also claimed they used only anhydrous magnesium chloride (25.5% magnesium) and anhydrous magnesium sulfate (20.2% magnesium).

    There is just no combination of these ingredients that can have more than 25.5% magnesium.

    It looks like they added the percent magnesium values together. :D
     
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