Managing ammonia in a quarantine tank dosed with copper

[Sleepydoc]

I have a Coris Wrasse in a 29 gallon quarantine tank. After dosing with copper power the ammonia spiked a bit to 0.2 mg/l total or 0.02 mg/l NH3 with a red sea test kit.

From what I understand, it’s safe to combine Copper Power with Prime; my question is whether it’s better to treat this or leave it since it’s a low level and let the denitrifying bacteria proliferate and take care of it. The fish appears fine - eating well, no signs of distress.

 

[DaddyFish]

Why not dose a beneficial bacteria like Stability or Dr. Tim's or ??? to address the ammonia?

 

[Sleepydoc]

Why not dose a beneficial bacteria like Stability or Dr. Tim's or ??? to address the ammonia?

Primarily because I didn’t think of it, but the secondary reason is my LFS is closed on Mondays and Tuesdays so it would take a couple days to get it. There is a PetCo not too far away - I can check to see if they have anything.

 

[slojim]

I've used copper power a few times. Each time, it obliterated my biological filtration. I did double dose beneficial bacteria daily and it still took about 2 weeks before the biofilter started keeping up. Until then, I dosed prime, with a few water changes.
Prime is not supposed to prevent the biofilter from establishing, and I personally have had much better QT success since I started proactively dosing prime, instead of waiting to see signs of ammonia and stress. So I would go ahead and dose.
I like using the badges in a QT tank instead of a test kit (I have the same red sea test kit as well) - I can see ammonia readings on my way out the door in the morning or even with a camera when I away from home nad check in on my QT. A test kit that takes 15 minutes just can't give you a status as frequently, and I find them to be reasonably indicative of the tank condition based on fish behavior.

 

[threebuoys]

I have used copper power multiple times in a 20 gallon QT with a canister filter which had completely cycled the tank with fish before adding the copper power. I've never had an ammonia problem during the actual quarantine protocol. My canister is filled with 40 ppi foam and nothing else. I believe the key to my success is that the foam has very high surface area to which the bacteria is attached and the water is forced through the foam at a high turnover rate. If any of my bacteria has died during QT, it was not to the point that ammonia was not processed.

With regard to bacteria in a bottle, keep in mind that the bacteria must attach to surfaces and multiply in order to be successful. That's why live rock is so critical in a display tank. The glass walls of the QT tank are not adequate to house the required level of bacteria. Most reef tanks have much more live rock surface area than necessary to process ammonia, but a QT needs the added water flow to insure the ammonia reaches the bacteria in the filtering system.

Most bacteria in a bottle requires several days if not longer to attach to surfaces and adequately multiply to process ammonia with or without copper. Search for a thread on "bacteria in a Bottle" and you'll see which products were most effective. I did my on experiment with 5 different product and had similar results to the thread I'm talking about.

There are several currently active and interesting threads in the reef chemistry forum concerning prime and ammonia which you may want to read.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

I would perform a water change to dilute the ammonia down. Just add copper to your new water before exchanging

 

[Sleepydoc]

Thanks for the input. The tank has a hang on back filter and was nominally cycled ahead of time but had been dormant so I’m sure the bacteria had died out somewhat. I watched it for a few days before adding copper and the NH3 didn’t rise so I thought I was safe.

I ended up adding some Prime based on @slojim’s experience and this thread:

PSA: PRIME safe to use with COPPER POWER

7/13/2023 Note: There is still some question in my mind about using any of the three copper products (Cupramine, Copper Power and Coppersafe) with an EXCESS of any reducing agents. These can include formalin, sodium thiosulfate, Prime or possibly even Amquel. Anything that can break the...

www.reef2reef.com

The fish is (still) doing well and NH3 is now zero. And I’m resting easier!

 

[aggrofish]

Im on week 3 of QT right now. TBH I didnt test for ammonia. I've been doing a water change every few days on a 15 gallon. I marked the 5 gallon line on a bucket and it's something like 7.348ml of copper power to get to 2.5 copper that the tank is at

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the input. The tank has a hang on back filter and was nominally cycled ahead of time but had been dormant so I’m sure the bacteria had died out somewhat. I watched it for a few days before adding copper and the NH3 didn’t rise so I thought I was safe.

I ended up adding some Prime based on @slojim’s experience and this thread:

PSA: PRIME safe to use with COPPER POWER

7/13/2023 Note: There is still some question in my mind about using any of the three copper products (Cupramine, Copper Power and Coppersafe) with an EXCESS of any reducing agents. These can include formalin, sodium thiosulfate, Prime or possibly even Amquel. Anything that can break the...

www.reef2reef.com

The fish is (still) doing well and NH3 is now zero. And I’m resting easier!

I glanced through this thread and didn't see that anyone mentioned this - All three copper products, Cupramine, Copper Power and Coppersafe are bound to an amine and will cause a spike in ammonia after dosing - sometimes as high as 0.40 ppm. In an established QT, I just disregard that. The only real trouble is that in a poorly established QT, this can mask true ammonia issues.

Despite what you read, I'm still suspicious of using any reducing agent with these amine copper products; dechlor, ammonia removers and formalin. The chemical reactions are not well known.

Jay

 

[Sleepydoc]

I glanced through this thread and didn't see that anyone mentioned this - All three copper products, Cupramine, Copper Power and Coppersafe are bound to an amine and will cause a spike in ammonia after dosing - sometimes as high as 0.40 ppm. In an established QT, I just disregard that. The only real trouble is that in a poorly established QT, this can mask true ammonia issues.

Despite what you read, I'm still suspicious of using any reducing agent with these amine copper products; dechlor, ammonia removers and formalin. The chemical reactions are not well known.

Jay

Thanks - do you know of any posts or articles that go over the chemistry of the copper products and/or products like Prime? Freshman chemistry was a few years ago...

I ended up dosing Prime and so far so good. My wrasse is happily swimming and eating and the only signs of stress he's showing is when I put my face up to the glass to check on him and he has to go and hide.