Markings on tangs face

[dylanst.onge]

My sailfin tang and tenneti tang both have these markings on their faces and seem to slowly get worse. They eat plenty and I feed lots of nori no other tangs have any markings or anything and both fish have been in the tank for 3 or so years. It's hard to get pictures with the top down but I did get a little video. Not sure if it's a pest or what any help would be appreciated

 

[ying yang]

Video doesnt play fyi
Try loading to youtube then link here so guys and gals can help you

 

[Gtinnel]

Usually when I hear issue with the face I instantly think HLLE. I think that is likely what it is

 

[Gtinnel]

Video doesnt play fyi
Try loading to youtube then link here so guys and gals can help you

I can see the video on my android phone.

 

[JGT]

Without seeing the video, I agree. Frightening how we can interpret issues just by a description, huh?

 

[ying yang]

I can see the video on my android phone.

Hit or miss with some these videos I see.
Sometimes I can see bit others cant or I can't and others can like you pffft

 

[Gtinnel]

Without seeing the video, I agree. Frightening how we can interpret issues just by a description, huh?

I went in with a preconceived idea, but I can see the video

 

[KrisReef]

My sailfin tang and tenneti tang both have these markings on their faces and seem to slowly get worse. They eat plenty and I feed lots of nori no other tangs have any markings or anything and both fish have been in the tank for 3 or so years. It's hard to get pictures with the top down but I did get a little video. Not sure if it's a pest or what any help would be appreciated

Looks like a common issue, discussed here by an expert:

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Gtinnel]

Hit or miss with some these videos I see.
Sometimes I can see bit others cant or I can't and others can like you pffft

I always assumes it's due to the different devices people use to view the forum.

 

[ying yang]

Yeah probably .I'm s10 plus so android also

 

[Gtinnel]

Yeah probably .I'm s10 plus so android also

Oh idk then I'm on a note 20 ultra. Possibly different versions of Android then.
If it helps anyone here is a zoomed in screen capture from the video.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes - both fish have Head and Lateral Line Erosion. It is most commonly linked to carbon use. Stopping carbon use does not always heal the scars though, and in some cases, tanks having held carbon years ago can continue to cause this in new fish.

One thing about feeding Nori - a lot of folks buy Sushi grade roasted Nori. I don't think that has any Vitamin C in it, and other nutrients may also be lost during the roasting process. Air dried, specifically made for aquarium use is best.

For me, unless the video is hosted (like You Tube), the best way for me to see them is to download them and then play them back. Even then, it can be hit or miss - my home computer has a different codec than my work computer, so some videos won't play for me at work.

Jay Hemdal

 

[DrZoidburg]

Yes - both fish have Head and Lateral Line Erosion. It is most commonly linked to carbon use. Stopping carbon use does not always heal the scars though, and in some cases, tanks having held carbon years ago can continue to cause this in new fish.

One thing about feeding Nori - a lot of folks buy Sushi grade roasted Nori. I don't think that has any Vitamin C in it, and other nutrients may also be lost during the roasting process. Air dried, specifically made for aquarium use is best.

For me, unless the video is hosted (like You Tube), the best way for me to see them is to download them and then play them back. Even then, it can be hit or miss - my home computer has a different codec than my work computer, so some videos won't play for me at work.

Jay Hemdal

I disagree with the nori part. A lot of them are roasted with IR heat. Doesn't reach high enough temps to degrade C. Maybe so with the others category.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I disagree with the nori part. A lot of them are roasted with IR heat. Doesn't reach high enough temps to degrade C. Maybe so with the others category.

There may be a difference between "dried", "toasted" and "roasted" nori. In the absence of being able to test for vit. C, I think it is best to avoid Sushi grade Nori. 140 F. is enough to degrade a substantial amount of it.

Here is a cool article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7835986/

It shows that Porphyra, the genus used to make Nori sheets contains around 0.7 mg/g of vitamin C. That is by wet weight though, so you can't compare it to dried nori.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

There may be a difference between "dried", "toasted" and "roasted" nori. In the absence of being able to test for vit. C, I think it is best to avoid Sushi grade Nori. 140 F. is enough to degrade a substantial amount of it.

Here is a cool article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7835986/

It shows that Porphyra, the genus used to make Nori sheets contains around 0.7 mg/g of vitamin C. That is by wet weight though, so you can't compare it to dried nori.

Jay

Fully agreed and for this reason, I only use Ocean nutrition and Rod's algae sheets

 

[vetteguy53081]

Water quality plays a role (reason why many add carbon or over-carbon) and diet.
With most tangs, feed at least:

Spirulina brine shrimp
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract
LRS Herbivore diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
Hikari Marine cuisine
Hikari Mega marine algae
Mysis shrimp
small plankton

Add selcon vitamins to the food 2-3X per week and garlic extract on alternating days for immunity system health and overall stamina

 

[DrZoidburg]

There may be a difference between "dried", "toasted" and "roasted" nori. In the absence of being able to test for vit. C, I think it is best to avoid Sushi grade Nori. 140 F. is enough to degrade a substantial amount of it.

Here is a cool article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7835986/

It shows that Porphyra, the genus used to make Nori sheets contains around 0.7 mg/g of vitamin C. That is by wet weight though, so you can't compare it to dried nori.

Jay

loss of "70% of the initial content during storage" oxidation.. "found that drying at 30 °C for 4 h did not affect the ascorbic acid content, moreover did washing or toasting for 15 s of nori sheets not influence the ascorbic acid content." in processing section. I can actually test this maybe you have inspired a thread.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

loss of "70% of the initial content during storage" oxidation.. "found that drying at 30 °C for 4 h did not affect the ascorbic acid content, moreover did washing or toasting for 15 s of nori sheets not influence the ascorbic acid content." in processing section. I can actually test this maybe you have inspired a thread.

So - we probably need to back up and determine what we are trying to conclude here. I said roast nori is deficient in vitamin C because I know that to be heat liable. Also, everyone "knows" that a lack of vitamin C causes HLLE. However, let's start with that:

The only study I know of that looked at HLLE and Vitamin C was by George Blasiola, back in 1989 and 1990. That paper was not peer reviewed. Here is one link to an old SeaScope article where Blasiola was said to have discussed this at the Monaco Aquarium Congress:

https://spectrum-sitecore-spectrumbrands.netdna-ssl.com/~/media/UPG/Files/Instant%20Ocean/SeaScope/Volume%2005_1988.pdf

Years ago, I had reviewed George's study and found it fatally flawed: poor control, fish were moved to new tanks and no measurement of vitamin C was actually made.

Andy Stamper (another carbon/HLLE proponent) didn't find a connection with lack of C and HLLE:
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11257&id=3865088&print=1

We had our fish diets analyzed by Michigan State University. Across our entire collection, the only deficiencies seen were Thiamin and E. Ascorbic acid didn't make the list.


Jay

 

[DrZoidburg]

I just say it is not as heat liable. That 1st article said it too. The .7mg was dry weight? Where you get 140 degree F from? Not saying relation or not to hlle.