Merry Christmas to me, all my chalices died.. why ??

SaltISlife

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So i just lost all my chalices.. I had a space invaider (the green one with a orange eye) a pink booobies, a WWC Dr evil chalice, and a Alien inferno chalice.

It started like a week ago, the Dr Evil started to receed, losing flesh like STN, then over 3-4 days it was 70% gone, then it started on my pink booobies, and now after 2 days its 80% gone, my Alien inferno last night started to show the same symptoms, and today its 10% dead. Im sure itll keep going tonight.

The only two chalices I have left is the plating Hollywood stunner, showing 0 sign, and the space invaider or Mummy eye chalice i believe it has both of those names. The space invaider, showed signs at the beggining a week ago but it healed. However one of its eyes looks like it melted away i think.. I have a feeling its going too.

The tank is 135 gallon 6 ft, has near 100 corals, mixed reef. I have 4 bubble corals, 17 types of acro's, about 20 types of zoanthids, 6 types of torch corals, 4 colors of goniporas, about 7 monitporas encrusting or plating, a orange setosa, i have 5 types of cyphastreas, only two leathers a cabbage leather and a neon green tree looking leather i forgot its name. and a few others

The param were 1330 mag, calcium was at 440, salinity 1.026, temp is 78-80f, alk is 8 on average, ph is always 7.8-8.0 I cant get it any higher and i dont try as the tank has been fine like this for 2 years. Flow hasnt changed, no stray voltage. Phosphates were .25, nitrates were very high in the 70ppm range. Thats onething i can think of that might have caused this. As ive been feeding my fish alot the last 2 months, more than my denitrate can keep up with. Normally though my tank is in the 30-40ppm range.

I did run out of the liquid calcium and liquid alk from seachems part 1 and 2 dosing, so i switched to seachems powdered versions, and ive been using that stuff for the last 2-3 weeks. So im wondering if it was that. But i dont see how. My calcium was 380, and i did raise it back to 420 but i did it over 4 days time, i didnt overdose and alk never changed but that was 2 weeks ago. I just dont know what could cause and continue to keep them from melting. I do dose Kents products, 3 bottles the essential elements, the strontium and molybenum "spelling" and coral vite. I also dose Iodine from fluval. I dose 5ml iodine, and 15ml of the other stuff. Ive been dosing those for 2 1/2 months now.

This is the only thing i did differently, because normally my tank would need a 30-50% water change after only 2 weeks, due to the amount of corals i have in the tank, they were sucking something or multiple things up that you cant normally test for. As my hawkins and some sensitive sps would start melting after 2 weeks. Water changes in the 10-15% range werent enough so thats why i had to do big ones. After dosing the 4 bottles i mentioned, none of my corals melted and i went 2 1/2 months with no water changes. Again though NO corals are showing any issues.

But then a week ago as i said my chalices just started melting. I did a 85 gallon water change 3 days ago, the tank with the sand and rocks has only about 100 gallons of water being 135 gallons. So 85g was a near complete water change. None of my corals were affected, but the chalices continue to decline. And the inferno started yesturday.. So if this were a water issue, that huge water change should have stopped it, but chalices that werent affected and now being affected.. So i dunno,

Do these corals have like infections they can get that spread ? These chalices were all on the same rock, all but the hollywood stunner who is the only one not affected. I tried dipping them and cutting the bad parts off, but it doesnt help

This sucks, its like chalices are the hardest corals for me to keep, ive seen this happen before to the pink booobies, and the Dr evil.. but they stopped and recovered. They have done this twice in the past actually, and this was before i dosed those 4 bottles and just did water changes often. So thats why i dont think the dosing had anything to do with it. I can keep every single coral out there, i even can take dying or failing corals from other tanks and they recover/color and explode in my tank. But chalices... just grow slow, or melt and recover, and now there just melting completetly
 

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I would highly suggest more attention to ur PH to get it to 8.3 and keep it stable. Check out BRSTV video on this - turned me to a believer and I've had noticeable improvement in coral health since changing around thxgiving.

The issue here is that at lower levels, corals may survive and even do well, but at the same time some may be "doing well" but is only one bad thing away from crashing. So stressor that would otherwise be survivable in higher PH will cause its demise in lower PH, leading to more chances of "mysterious death"
 
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SaltISlife

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No way to raise the PH for my tank, other then chemicals, for some reason even with my window open and glass tops off the ph doesnt go up. I even tried airstone.. both reef tanks in this room sit at 7.8-8.0. Not sure why they wont go up
 

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Is the airstone getting air from outside or inside? Try doing the Randy test if you haven't done so to see if its a co2 issue. Just opening windows or using airstone by itself may not always correctly diagnose the problem but the randy test usually is pretty reliable. Just want completely rule out co2 as an issue.
 
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SaltISlife

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i actually did just that 5 days ago. I got a longer tube and ran the air pump outside my window and closed the window, and 4 days later.. the tank is still 7.8-8.0 closer to 7.8. I just took my glass tops off again tonight, and put some eggcrate on so my fish dont jump out, eggcrate does cut alot of light back but thats ok. I just wanna see after 24-48 hours if the ph goes up.

i doubt it will though. Assuming it wont.. what then ? because my calcium is 440 atm, mag is 1380, and alk is 9 right now and yet ph is only 7.8
 

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Here's Randy's article.



This can probably explain it better than me. Other explanations include if you have a calcium reactor or if tank is still cycling.

Sry not trying to beat a dead horse but I'm not convinced its not a co2 issue. Taking ur tank cover off while window is closed and running air from outside has the opposite effect bc ur indoor air will have high co2 with window closed so that will lower the ph from surface agitation, canceling any co2 reduction from airpump from outside air. If its cold out in the winter that also impacts it. Did you do the test with 2 separate cups and air stones? The small volume will make the result very obvious instead of trying to see something on your large tank than may have other factors contributing to the co2 that you didn't control for if u didn't do the test exactly as described in that article.

The chemical relationship between alk and ph should be more or less fixed at a given co2 and temperature level.

Only other possibility I can think of is inaccurate testing results?

Maybe others in the forum has other thoughts.
 
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SaltISlife

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No i havent tried two seperate cups. right now its 16f outside, too cold to open my window, but in the fall i had my windows in the house wise open and the ph was still 7.8, even with a ceiling fan on. I have tons of surface movement too with my pumps pointing up.. but when we have a mid 50s day coming up ill open it. Ill try a cup with an airstone in the room using one pump and put another cup by the window with an airpump outside and see what happens.
 

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I agree with the above, not PH. A well run system will always be stable. anytime you need to fix perimeters something could have suffered. Was it this... I kinda doubt it. For all of only one type of coral to fail it has to be something that they equally don’t like. I will say those phosphate and nitrate numbers are very very high and that is what I think would be the most likely culprits.
 

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I’m not too experienced in chalices— the only one I have is about 2 months old. I did find another thread on here about someone having the same issue. Their conclusion was:

“I found out that my calcium test kit was bad, and my mag was also low..didnt have a kit for that.
so i, bought a red sea mag/calc test kit.

mag was 1200, calc was 340...my other test said it was 420..”

I’m really sorry to hear about what happened. It’s so frustrating, especially when you put that much effort into maintaining water quality. Hope the Space invader and Hollywood stunner are able to hang in there and recover.
 

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Sorry about this. If it were my tank, I would make sure it’s on a consistent water change schedule. Then the only additives would be to maintain Ca, alkalinity, and Mg.
 

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The more mysteries that I read about from clam pinched mantle disease, brown jelly disease, and other aggressive deterioration seem in my opinion to be related to protozoan infections. Many of these treatments seem to be using Cipro the antibiotic, I have read ones for frogspawn (linked below) and mushrooms.



Faunamarin makes an STN/RTN product that talks about this as a protozoan and fungi infection. Check out their manual for a good read. BTW I have never used this product, I found it reading about Dinox.

I do agree with others here I would stop all your additives, it sounds like its something recent that changed. For example when treating dinos we would stop giving the tank amino acids as it feed the dinos.. I wonder if any of your new additives have started to grow a population that was once under control in the tank because it was starved for some nutrient you started adding (speculation.)

I don't think co2 is your problem or ph, else you would see it in other animals too. But if you wanted to see the relationship between co2, ph, and alkalinity I made some tables here with the CO2SYS modeling software from NOAA.

 
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SaltISlife

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Wwll i just checked my tanks ph. (Lights are off fyi) and its 7.8 right now. I decided to put an airatone in tank water and put it by the window. 20 min later i checked. And the ph is 8.0

On the api kit one is a purpleish tan color. The other is more purple deff in the 8.0 range.

So this airstone out my window did raise the ph to 8.0. But then last night my ph was 8.0 in the tank with the lights on.

So ima leave this airstone in the thing for another hour and check. According to charts with an alk of 9 and calcium at 440 right now. My ph should be 8.3.

But with airation of 20min its only 8.0. Maybe 20 min isnt enough ? But this is only like 2 measuring cups of water.. so that should be plenty of time. But ill check again in 30 min to an hour.

Left in pic is airated.. right is tank with lights off.. but yea i dont know these chalices has melted a few times before but recovered and this was long before i dosed with kents stuff.. but for the longest time they grew fine.. and with kents products for 2 months they were fine.. then suddenly boom melted..

I dunno its tough to tell what the cause is i guess.. just sucks.. if it was the dosing.. why is a chalice that never melted.. now melting 2 days after my 85g water change. And if it was the 70ppm nitrates why only chalices.. and why after i lowered it to like 30ppm is a chalice nelting that never did before.

I really wonder if its a parasite.. seeing as they were all on the same rock inchs from eachother

20201226_094424.jpg
 

josephxsxn

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So this airstone out my window did raise the ph to 8.0. But then last night my ph was 8.0 in the tank with the lights on.

So ima leave this airstone in the thing for another hour and check. According to charts with an alk of 9 and calcium at 440 right now. My ph should be 8.3.

But with airation of 20min its only 8.0. Maybe 20 min isnt enough ? But this is only like 2 measuring cups of water.. so that should be plenty of time. But ill check again in 30 min to an hour.


A skimmer or airstone (unless perhaps its mega sized on a nano tank) will not provide enough gas exchange to create perfect equilibrium. If this were the case when we connect to outdoor air sources the PH would never change, rather we still see swings in the tank related to the photo period were our corals and others are consuming co2 while growing driving the PH up. But if your seeing change from just the outdoor airstone then indeed you have alot of co2 in your tank. To keep this change your gonna have to run outdoor air forever fyi.

If you have a 9 DKH and PH is 8.0 then your co2 by chart is 888 ppm on the Free scale, ocean would be more near 350ppm. If you have never used outdoor air before I would give it some time and see where you level out to. On my tank the lows of 7.7,7.8 turned into lows of 8.0 and 8.1 at night with outdoor skimmer air setup.


I do NOT believe this is related to your STN/RTN, but it may be something you want investigate as higher PH is associated with more growth. (watch your alk higher PH will drive consumption.)
 
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SaltISlife

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Yea i dont think its related either. But itd be nice to see my ph rise.

I just checked again. Ph is more purple now. Not quiet 8.2 at least on api chart.. but its deff a shade higher than the 8.0 one. So ill say its at 8.1 now

So it went from 7.8 to 8.1. Its impossible to get a picture of the shade changes sadly but its very clear to me with my eyes

So i dunno what to do to get the co2 outa the tank. Or my room

I cant keep my window open. And ive had this airpump in the same position its in now airating this container with 2 measuring cups of water as i had it for the tank.... I dont think this single airstone is enough oxygenation for 135 gallons. Maybe i need a bigger airstone and stronger air pump ? Or will i never win.. because im forcing o2 into the tank... but when the tank airates from the rooms it just sucks in co2 am i right ?

Fyi my tanks lids have been off all night. So it isnt the glass lids. Its just the overall house co2, seems i had plenty of airation with ny lids on as ph didnt change with em off.. Just not enough oxygen in the room/house
 

josephxsxn

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So i dunno what to do to get the co2 outa the tank. Or my room

I cant keep my window open.

Its just the overall house co2, seems i had plenty of airation with ny lids on as ph didnt change with em off.. Just not enough oxygen in the room/house

:) Please dont mix up oxygen into this, typically air is mostly nitrogen anyway so maybe the co2 displaced nitrogen, oxygen and other trace gases but the contributing factor is co2 in some way.

I didn't see if you had a skimmer or not, personally wouldn't use the airstone due to the spray it makes long term but thats up to you. You could run a dedicated line out the window, perhaps make a wooden board with a hole in it for the tube, paint it nice, some foam to make it more air-tight.. This way you can close the window down onto the board with the tube so the window isnt just open. Another option is the co2 absorbing material, but considering you have an unlimited source of free balanced gases outside I found it hard to justify to myself buying co2 media forever.

 
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SaltISlife

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New update checked again.. now its at 8.2 in the outdoor airation of the cup of water.

Dang man
 
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SaltISlife

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:) Please dont mix up oxygen into this, typically air is mostly nitrogen anyway so maybe the co2 displaced nitrogen, oxygen and other trace gases but the contributing factor is co2 in some way.

I didn't see if you had a skimmer or not, personally wouldn't use the airstone due to the spray it makes long term but thats up to you. You could run a dedicated line out the window, perhaps make a wooden board with a hole in it for the tube, paint it nice, some foam to make it more air-tight.. This way you can close the window down onto the board with the tube so the window isnt just open. Another option is the co2 absorbing material, but considering you have an unlimited source of free balanced gases outside I found it hard to justify to myself buying co2 media forever.




No maybe i didnt make myself clear. This airpump is hanging out my window. Window is closed. I ment i cant keep my window wide open to airate my entire room. Ph is now 8.2 in my little container.

This air pump has been hanging out the window for over a month now. With an airstone in the tank. And it hasnt changed the ph in the tank. It was 7.8 before and 7.8 after.

So what im saying is. It managed to get this container to 8.2 right now. But it hasnt affected the tank one bit. So im wondering.. is one little airstone enough. Or should i split the line. And make two airstone. Or have a bigger one. Or a stronger pump to push more air into the tank.

It works on a container but not 135 gallons.

And no i have no sumo no skimmer. I rolls with hang on backs for mechanical filtration and thats it.

This is my tank. Two pics but the zoas is just the side cut off in the other pic. As you can see i have no other coral issues.. just those dang chalices.


Also couldnt i just run airstones into my hang on back filters to avoid salt spray. It is rather getting annoying having the spray on my glass lids lol. But that usually happens anyway over time.

20201129_183030.jpg 20201119_134909.jpg
 

josephxsxn

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I think your tank looks amazing and am not sure I would even change anything honestly.. Lots of good tanks running 7.8, yours included.

Yes it sounds like you need more exchange then the single airstone can provide.. I have no idea what will be better more or larger or both for airstones.. Maybe hook up a larger airstone and put in co2 scrubber media so its like [airpump] ==> [Scrubber] ==> [Airstone]? Throw it on a PH Controller and turn it off when it hits target. Without re-circulation though I think you may go through it very fast.

Another option could be a slow kalkwasser drip?
 

ZoWhat

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Alkalinity is the usual suspect if a chalice dies quickly

I would highly question the accuracy of your ALK test. I would have atleast 1 possibly 2 LFSs run separate ALK tests for you.

Any dKH >= 12 is the danger zone. They just burn up...
.
 

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