Metal Halide and T5 Grow Corals Better Than LED and Cost Less

[Graffiti Spot]

Bpb is the Hamilton 14k whiter than a Phoenix bulb? I was going to go with ushio just because I know their 14k is more like a 10k.
Anyone know what Hamilton and ushio bulbs get the most par for the 250w single ends?

 

[Bpb]

Bpb is the Hamilton 14k whiter than a Phoenix bulb? I was going to go with ushio just because I know their 14k is more like a 10k.
Anyone know what Hamilton and ushio bulbs get the most par for the 250w single ends?

I’ve only seen the Phoenix bulbs once and they had blue t5’s running with them. If memory serves me correct the Hamilton 14k bulbs are a touch whiter.

What reflectors are you running?

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Lumenbright minis

 

[Bpb]

Lumenbright minis

I was getting 450+ par on the sandbed with hammy 14k in the same reflectors ar 36” distance from bulb to sand (12” air 24” water)

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Very helpful! With electronic ballasts I assume?

 

[Bpb]

Very helpful! With electronic ballasts I assume?

I was running m58’s with the 14k bulbs. I’ve recently switched to electronic ballasts but they’re pumping just as much par

 

[alton]

Well another MH thread. You still have the LED is more efficient and MH waste energy theory. Lamps have to be changed every year. Ballast, do not last. Pendants/fixtures are large and ugly. MH burn coral.
For those that know me know that I ran 250w MH from 2003 to 2016 when I down sized from a 300 to 180. I had many corals so growth wasn’t a big issue for me and my BML leds strips grew corals just fine on my 65, so I wasn’t worried on my 180. Never ran a chiller and I learned that in South Texas in June, July, and August when Temps get around 100, I only ran my MH 3 hours a day and my coral never skipped a beat. 12pm to 6pm leds only, 6pm to 9pm when I was actually at home and could enjoy my tank the MH came on. At 9pm to 10pm only leds. In the winter I didn’t run a heater just turned up the run time on my MH. But then I switched to all Leds in 2016. I remember my first June I waited for the wife to call and say our electrical bill went way down, but that never happened. As a matter of fact no savings at all because I went from running Leds 10 hours and MH 3 hours to doubling the amount of Led fixtures at 10 hours a day. And then I had to go out and buy a heater.

So why did I stay? I was now able to keep glass lids on the tank saving me a ton of evaporation. I went from 6 gallons a week to maybe 1? The big bulky look of 16” pendants 8” above tank went to slim Leds directly on top of the tank for a super clean look. But then I got bored with the 180 and upgraded to a Planet 310 and my LED’s where not enough so I started looking for MH again possibly coralvue pendants or the Giesemann Spectra fixture which looked very nice. But a friend decided to change to Radions and sold me 6 Hydra fixtures for $100 each, so you can’t beat that. So I am still 100% led because it was the cheapest option.

I have seen many questionable comments so 13 years of MH from an Led user about MH.

Lamps averaged 16 to18 months checked with a Par meter and coral growth. And please do not give me the “Well Spectrum Changed crap”. In thirteen years I had one lamp last 24 months and one that only lasted a year. I changed lamps when they dropped 10%, so never any reason for acclimation to the new lamps. Lamps I used where Radium and Phoenix SE and nobody who saw my tank could tell the difference. Checking with a Par Meter both where also equal. Electronic Ballast lasted 8 to 10 years. I did have one go bad at 5, and I still have one. I only used the Original Coralvue ballast before they became a corporation and David sold out. The first ones where HQI, the second run had a HQI setting. I laughed when people would tell me if you do not run Radium with a M80 ballast they will not last as long, or they will be too blue.

Now on to Leds, my oldest BML is from 2012. I have a Par lamp led on my sump under my 65 that is 4 years old and still has plenty of Par to grow coral and chaeto. The Hydra’s I bought average 5 years old and where only run at 50%, To get the Par levels I need along with my old BML’s I still only run them at 50%. I have tried Black Boxes, but they dropped Par way to fast. I have owned three Mars Aqua lights. They are a good cheap light, but if you are worried about filling up landfills, don’t buy them.

On another note since dimming MH came up in an earlier post: In the 90’s there was a company I think Coralife represented them called Sun Solar? IT was a 175w pendant with a true dimming ballast. Each ballast came with two cords, one had to be plugged into a constant hot, the other a timer. You could set it to where it would take two hours to go from 10% bright to 100%. And then in the evening it would take 2 hours to ramp down. I bought two of these used, the only problem it would only work with pulse start lamps. When Coralvue came out with pulse start 175w lamps it was golden. Lamps lasted about 18 months also. The ballast only lasted about five years which sucked. Then in and around 2000 Widelite which was based in San Marcos TX made a MH commercial fixture that also had a true dimming ballast for warehouses that was actually 0 to 10 volt controlled but it was 277 volt powered which wouldn’t work in my situation. Philips bought the company and now produces Led fixtures. Funny thing was last time I was there they showed us workers building LED fixtures but the plant was still lit by MH. I am sure by now that has changed.

In closing Quality Leds are here to stay and finally last as advertised, and MH/ T5 lamps well? But for now if you set up that giant tank, MH is still your cheapest/best bang for the buck option. But please 400w MH do not belong on a 75 gallon.

 

[fredk]

I can't mention names, but some of the larger coral farms grow corals at 25 PAR under LEDs. I wouldn't recommend it to just anyone though.

Just another example of why there is no right or best answer on either lighting tech or intensity.

 

[Conrad]

Here is my new lighting setup. I just setup a 250G Deep Dimension tank I acquired used. I added it to my system that I had a volume of almost 300G. So now its 550G of volume. I was a halide guy through and through always. But thats because I chose to try out the chinese pendants years ago when they ran and DIY leds and hated them. That was before all the radion fixtures and other nice fixtures that came out. I started running Radion G4's and T5s a year ago when I got back into the hobby after a few year break. I will never now go back to halides now. I have had great results and good growth. All my tanks are running the same exact setups like the new one. I like proven lighting, so halides and t5s have always been proven to work. Radions have been proven to work through the last 4 generations. I am not sure about the new G5's. The software is very glitchy in the new ones right now from everyone whom went to G5s from past fixtures.

Here is my setup on the 250G now. I am not worried about LED savings, I want results and here it is. Extremely even coverage and good par.

2 x XR30 G4 Pros over center brace

4 x XR15 G4 Pros, 2 on each side.

4 T5 60" retrofit with ATI coral blue plus bulbs.

 

[A. grandis]

I'm happy to hear from all of you guys... Thanks very much!
Once again... a matter of vision, personal preferences of results and application. I think we are finally setting a level of understanding to distinguish results between using the different light sources discussed. And also understanding some of the differences between the properties of each light sources, like UV-A/B emission, for example.
I would like to see some LED results that could be visually similar to halides and/or T5s' results.
Again, not to say one is better than the other, but would be very interesting to find some visual close comparisons.
To me, under "normal conditions" (not spending tons of money) most of the home tanks with LEDs seem kind of "weak" comparing to halides in terms of coral structure formation and flesh vitality (best way I could find to express myself), and growth rates, in some cases. The videos I've been posting kinda show a bit of that IMPO.
I know that a fair comparison with similar PAR/intensity is essential for such comparison and there is more to it. In my point of view the tanks we know about, like Sanjay's and WWC, are good examples of the difference between the 2 types of light, as presented before in this thread. Perhaps the intensity/wattage/PAR isn't too different among the 2 types of lights (from Halides to Radion) used for the comparison (or at least best matched), but the results were visible IMO. They are also seen as the example by many for that comparison. And many say Radions are one of the "best" to be compared to halids/T5s, as EcoTech's Coral Lab PDF was set on.

Please feel free to post your opinions on this particular observations.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I would like to see some LED results that could be visually similar to halides and/or T5s' results.
Again, not to say one is better than the other, but would be very interesting to find some visual close comparisons.
To me, under "normal conditions" (not spending tons of money) most of the home tanks with LEDs seem kind of "weak" comparing to halides in terms of coral structure formation and flesh vitality (best way I could find to express myself), and growth rates, in some cases. The videos I've been posting kinda show a bit of that IMPO.
I know that a fair comparison with similar PAR/intensity is essential for such comparison and there is more to it.

I would like to see some pics as well! I have held back from saying the same thing when at some friends houses. I have seen a lot of tanks that use led and just don’t use them the right way and it really doesn’t please me. Often there will be a few struggling pieces towards the edges but the main thing is the acros just look weak like you said. Much smaller branches overall, thin flesh, and slow growth. Not saying a mh tank can’t do the same thing but it certainly would be harder.

Someone on my local board posted their tank that had a small led strip from maybe marine land or something. It was a small tank but it’s long and the light was sitting right on the top. The tank is a mixed reef but had amazing acros and sps in it grown from small pieces! Honestly blew me away to see such a low watt light growing acros like that even if its nothing super hard to grow.
So we know led can work in a lot of applications.
Maybe I can ask if I can post the pic here.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

T5 lights are too hot for me but I have to have them, I was an LED junky for a long long time but at the end of the day if you want a reef full of colonies then the shading just becomes too expensive to handle. I feel it gets out of hand buying LED units to combat shading issues (I was closing in on $10,000 worth of lights for my 300G tank...that's just wrong). For me in my display I prefer a mix of LED, T5 and Orphek bars/reefbrites; the orphek/reefbrite bars just offer so much more pop than your traditional LED units marketed for growing coral.

If I was in the business of selling coral and had large grow out tanks i'd probably use a combo of MH/T5 and Reefbrites. I just don't prefer the white light look of MH in my display.

I am starting to wonder how important lights are in comparison to flow and nutrients. I see some of these high end coral facilities that use very minimal lights very high above the water (Jason Fox uses very minimal lights as does WWC).

Everyone has their preference, mine personally is whatever it takes to grow corals and as long as I have my Orphek OR2 bars for fluorescence and pop i'm good! I felt my radion G4 pro's alone were fairly dull but much better than T5 alone which is a very boring look IMO. All the tanks that inspired me growing up had MH but I just wasn't feeling it once I started to see how much I enjoyed heavy blue lighting in my reef tanks.

 

[alton]

Although I am not a big SPS person here are some pictures of corals grown under my BML's. These where known as 20K because they tried to mimic everything from the radium lamp.
Smal frag I brought from home

A year later

These I got from Ty

And 5 Months later

Three of the four did real well. My sps collection went very well until last year the cleaning people splashed water on my power strip. It killed power, and when I came in on Monday killed all but one fish and all SPS. I stayed with LPS, and added a couple SPS frags. and also added two cameras so I can now watch my tank and the cleaning people on the weekends.
Before episode

And after

In closing growing SPS MH grew most corals faster, but I have a friend who's Hydras grew SPS just as well but he had twice as many fixtures as required turned down to 50%. For me I love fish much more than I love coral
Then

And now

After adding 6 Hydras $600 total, sorry fish are hiding

 

[mlivvy]

I started reefing in the late 90s. IMO nothing beats the growth and colors of radium bulbs. Here's why I gave up on them in the mid 2000s. I bought replacement bulbs and my wife accidentally dropped the bag breaking the bulbs. $200+ down the drain on replacement bulbs. T5 and MH is great but that bulb replacing is annoying.

 

[alton]

I started reefing in the late 90s. IMO nothing beats the growth and colors of radium bulbs. Here's why I gave up on them in the mid 2000s. I bought replacement bulbs and my wife accidentally dropped the bag breaking the bulbs. $200+ down the drain on replacement bulbs. T5 and MH is great but that bulb replacing is annoying.

That shouldn't be funny, but you have to laugh today?
I have one better than that. Husband and wife walk into my LFS and buy a 180 gallon aquarium. The staff loads it on his truck, and says for $50 we will follow you and place it in your home. Nope was the reply the wife and I have it. An hour later he comes back and buys another 180 gallon tank, yep she dropped it. Or at least her end?

 

[A. grandis]

I started reefing in the late 90s. IMO nothing beats the growth and colors of radium bulbs. Here's why I gave up on them in the mid 2000s. I bought replacement bulbs and my wife accidentally dropped the bag breaking the bulbs. $200+ down the drain on replacement bulbs. T5 and MH is great but that bulb replacing is annoying.

That is the saddest excuse I've ever heard for not using halides.
Please don't stop driving if someone would accidentally hit your car. ;Wideyed

 

[A. grandis]

That shouldn't be funny, but you have to laugh today?
I have one better than that. Husband and wife walk into my LFS and buy a 180 gallon aquarium. The staff loads it on his truck, and says for $50 we will follow you and place it in your home. Nope was the reply the wife and I have it. An hour later he comes back and buys another 180 gallon tank, yep she dropped it. Or at least her end?

At least they went back and fixed the problem. I'm sure they won't try to lift that tank togethwer anymore. We should learn the lesson and go on with life. I'm sure they are happy enjoying that 180gal.

 

[mlivvy]

That is the saddest excuse I've ever heard for not using halides.
Please don't stop driving if someone would accidentally hit your car. ;Wideyed

well if someone accidentally hit my car every 6 months I might stop driving.

 

[Bpb]

well if someone accidentally hit my car every 6 months I might stop driving.

If my wife dropped my halide bulbs every year we bought them she wouldn’t be allowed to hold them anymore

 

[CNDReef]

I don’t let mine hold anything tank related or it might be broken on purpose lol