Metal Halide and T5 Grow Corals Better Than LED and Cost Less

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oreo54

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2017?????
What is your point?
HE talks about led replacement in 5-7 years..
Already crunched those numbers w/ current costs..


I thought I'd try to amortize the cost of what ended up being recommended and the current "flavor of the day" LED.. :)

Starting w/ the MH t5 hybrid:
$2200 for the fixture.
$800 for bulb replacements w/ a change schedule of 18 months and assuming initial fixture comes w/ a set.
$3000
1070 Electrical watts at the bulbs approx

Not considering heating ect .. just sort of light equivalence.

Current Radion Gen 5
4 units placed sideways for a 72 x 24 area
$3359.96

720 Watts at the diodes..
I consider that about watt equiv..

big assumption is that the Radions are run full..
Probably have about 20% leeway in that assuming delivery is normal..

Just mh bulbs for the above 4 (worst case, could be 3) sets $59 each.. $472.... (250W hamiltons at "20000k" eh)
Assuming no ballasts fail...

Yep cheaper but not orders of magnitudes cheaper and NOT even adding another bulb to make up for not using the t5's.. (another 4X $59 =$236)..

Of course one would need to lower the $2200 fixture cost..
$289 x 3 plus $139 x 3= $1284..

$1284 + $472 = $1756.. vs $3359..

3= 250W MH's vs 4 radions..

LED degradation is speculative ATM..
Mh's shift spectrum almost instantaneously, well lets say monthly...
f2fig3.jpg

radium5.JPG

Conclusion
In this article we presented the results of spectral analysis of used 400-watt metal halide lamps in an effort to provide some indicators of spectral differences that occur over the lamps’ age. We agree that the lack of information about the initial spectral distribution of each lamp limits our ability to make accurate comparisons, but we feel that this data will at least provide some sense of how lamps of different ages look under a spectroradiometer and how the spectral characteristics differ. Clearly as indicated by the data, there are larger (faster) drops in the intensity in the violet and blue end of the spectrum for all the lamps. Hence, lamps with higher CCT tend to have a higher rate of intensity drop. Can this data be used to suggest a replacement policy for the lamps? The answer is not all that simple. Before this question can be adequately answered we need to define at what point does a lamp reach the end of its useful life. Should this useful life be based on (a) an absolute threshold based on the total PPFD in the PAR range independent of the lamp or, (b) a specified amount of reduction in the individual lamp’s PPFD in the PAR range, or (c) a specified amount of PPFD in a given radiation waveband?


Quote.. Is one any better than another.................
NO
 
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Big E

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ROFL.... you do realize that BRS has videos of multiple light types right? This is one of the videos i was watching....they have an entire series. Also please follow your own advice. The Orpheks were mounted at a minimum of 12 inches. For most of the lighting test, BRS mounts lights 6-8 inches. This is almost double the height of all other light test!

I apologize that i didn't provide links or screen shots. Not here to offend, just providing facts. Here are links and screenshots for reference. To your point of distribution of par, thats kinda the point....hot spots are not beneficial at all, the point is to get higher par numbers throughout as much of the tank as possible....which is why BRS has the average par number...thats the most important. As far as spectrum.....Orphek exceeds the ATI Blue Plus spectrum and at the time of the review, has the widest spectrum of any LED ever tested. Link

Lastly... i also added a screen shot of a popular 400 watt Metal Halide solution...guess what? It gets out performed by the Orphek LEDs that are mounted an additional 6 inches above the tank as well.


1585833959379.png



1585834670310.png




1585834652324.png



1585835548891.png

I'm not going to get into debates with you........i'm pointing out what was in that BRS video. It's silly to compare one bulb with a complete Orphek fixture for spectrum. I don't run all Blue+ bulbs so your post means little to me. I don't have anything against Orphek and am being objective.............I've seen Orpheks over tanks in person and know what they are capable of and am not convinced they provide anything better than many other brand of LED boxes out there with the same type layouts. I'm fine with waiting till more people use them and I can get more feedback.

I'm looking for an LED unit that will fit my needs for an acropora dominant system, so far one hasn't checked all the boxes that are important to me. I did buy one unit of another brand I'm going to test for myself that fits best for what I'm looking for in performance, use, and reliability. Btw, par is last on my list of needs, because how high I mount a light over my tank is not an issue unless I have to mount it so high it creates a lot of unsightly spillage and/or an annoyance when I'm in the front of the tank looking in.

I don't use MH, so again all you posted is meaningless to me.........I didn't mention them either.

Do you have a tank link?.........I'd be happy to follow your tank thread and results as time goes by........seeing actual results,performance, reliability, ect. over time is what I'm interested in.

I have specific results I expect from an LED only setup to move from a lighting setup I haven't changed in 8 years.
 
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alton

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The following tank is from the friend I bought the 6 AI Hydras from. The aquarium/picture posted is now lit with 6 Radion XR15 version 4, but where grown with the AI Hydras. He says he likes the color more with the Radion? The Tank is 60" x 30" x 27" tall. The worst part he has since decided he wants expensive Sps, so he has now ripped out most of the Sps that you see here
Tonys Tank with Radion XR15.jpg
 

Sdot

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I'm not going to get into debates with you........i'm pointing out what was in that BRS video. It's silly to compare one bulb with a complete Orphek fixture for spectrum. I don't run all Blue+ bulbs so your post means little to me. I don't have anything against Orphek and am being objective.............I've seen Orpheks over tanks in person and know what they are capable of and am not convinced they provide anything better than many other brand of LED boxes out there with the same type layouts. I'm fine with waiting till more people use them and I can get more feedback.

I'm looking for an LED unit that will fit my needs for an acropora dominant system, so far one hasn't checked all the boxes that are important to me. I did buy one unit of another brand I'm going to test for myself that fits best for what I'm looking for in performance, use, and reliability. Btw, par is last on my list of needs, because how high I mount a light over my tank is not an issue unless I have to mount it so high it creates a lot of unsightly spillage and/or an annoyance when I'm in the front of the tank looking in.

I don't use MH, so again all you posted is meaningless to me.........I didn't mention them either.

Do you have a tank link?.........I'd be happy to follow your tank thread and results as time goes by........seeing actual results,performance, reliability, ect. over time is what I'm interested in.

I have specific results I expect from an LED only setup to move from a lighting setup I haven't changed in 8 years.
 

Sdot

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I'm not going to get into debates with you........i'm pointing out what was in that BRS video. It's silly to compare one bulb with a complete Orphek fixture for spectrum. I don't run all Blue+ bulbs so your post means little to me. I don't have anything against Orphek and am being objective.............I've seen Orpheks over tanks in person and know what they are capable of and am not convinced they provide anything better than many other brand of LED boxes out there with the same type layouts. I'm fine with waiting till more people use them and I can get more feedback.

I'm looking for an LED unit that will fit my needs for an acropora dominant system, so far one hasn't checked all the boxes that are important to me. I did buy one unit of another brand I'm going to test for myself that fits best for what I'm looking for in performance, use, and reliability. Btw, par is last on my list of needs, because how high I mount a light over my tank is not an issue unless I have to mount it so high it creates a lot of unsightly spillage and/or an annoyance when I'm in the front of the tank looking in.

I don't use MH, so again all you posted is meaningless to me.........I didn't mention them either.

Do you have a tank link?.........I'd be happy to follow your tank thread and results as time goes by........seeing actual results,performance, reliability, ect. over time is what I'm interested in.

I have specific results I expect from an LED only setup to move from a lighting setup I haven't changed in 8 years.
Hmmm... then i guess im slightly confused by your response to my initial post. I do have a build thread and i will link pix to my most recent build as well.


1585939890515.png

1585940045138.png
 
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Graffiti Spot

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The following tank is from the friend I bought the 6 AI Hydras from. The aquarium/picture posted is now lit with 6 Radion XR15 version 4, but where grown with the AI Hydras. He says he likes the color more with the Radion? The Tank is 60" x 30" x 27" tall. The worst part he has since decided he wants expensive Sps, so he has now ripped out most of the Sps that you see here
Tonys Tank with Radion XR15.jpg

What is going on with the odd growth forms on all those corals? Awesome looking tank in general but the corals don’t look natural. How are the acropora looking under those lights in your tank?
 

Graffiti Spot

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I don’t pay one bit of attention to any BRS (or any other large sellers) video that try’s to compare led to MH with charts and graphs. They never have the MH setup how we run them and never seem to use the exact equipment that we use, so what use is it to me? It’s always set up to make the led look equal or greater than the halide on purpose if you ask me. Anyone who has run halides for a long time can look at most of these graphs and say “That is not how mine would look if you made a graph from it”. And I bet most led users would say “that’s not the percentage of power that I am going to run my leds at”.
 

Graffiti Spot

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Thanks for posting your ideas here!
Take a look at the colonies' structure formations in this movie.

It's a "nice tank".


Good example, I would guess it’s going to take a keen eye and lots of experience for a lot of people to understand and see what your trying to point out. On another note, that tank would be much nicer without all of that pink birdsnest all over the place. If I had that much birdsnest spread around in my tank I would have to chop whole colonies out every 6 months just to be able to see the other corals.
 

Sdot

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Good example, I would guess it’s going to take a keen eye and lots of experience for a lot of people to understand and see what your trying to point out. On another note, that tank would be much nicer without all of that pink birdsnest all over the place. If I had that much birdsnest spread around in my tank I would have to chop whole colonies out every 6 months just to be able to see the other corals.
Nice way to show your support of a fellow reefer by down playing their success:rolleyes:. Im assuming you have a thriving reef of well proportioned stoney coral colonies grown all with Metal halides? At the end of the day, you can grow corals with all of the proven light technologies...all have benefits and all have weaknesses. Just because you prefer one doesn't mean you should down play someone of their success for using another......
 
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A. grandis

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I don’t pay one bit of attention to any BRS (or any other large sellers) video that try’s to compare led to MH with charts and graphs. They never have the MH setup how we run them and never seem to use the exact equipment that we use, so what use is it to me? It’s always set up to make the led look equal or greater than the halide on purpose if you ask me. Anyone who has run halides for a long time can look at most of these graphs and say “That is not how mine would look if you made a graph from it”. And I bet most led users would say “that’s not the percentage of power that I am going to run my leds at”.
Sad to say is that I feel the same way today. In the beginning when I stated watching their videos I was impressed with the graphics and many things they said so well. I admire their hard work, availability/shipping and professionalism, but their videos are part of the job! That's the way it is if you want to succeed doing business. The videos will tell you what you need to hear to buy the products you are looking for no matter what!
 

alton

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What is going on with the odd growth forms on all those corals? Awesome looking tank in general but the corals don’t look natural. How are the acropora looking under those lights in your tank?
Most tanks have smaller sps colonies because they frag them to support their habit. My friend had a small rockwork with giant colonies that where never fragged. One thing the picture doesn’t show is the 50+ ricordia that line the aquarium floor. Sorry you didn’t like the look. Me I have become an angel euphyllia gsp person. My lfs buy euphyllia, gsp, and shrooms. People today want the latest greatest sps. Not the plain Jane ones I grew.
 

Graffiti Spot

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Nice way to show your support of a fellow reefer by down playing their success:rolleyes:. Im assuming you have a thriving reef of well proportioned stoney coral colonies grown all with Metal halides? At the end of the day, you can grow corals with all of the proven light technologies...all have benefits and all have weaknesses. Just because you prefer one doesn't mean you should down play someone of their success for using another......

Downplaying? I said it was an awesome tank don’t get to upset about it, I mean the colonies are huge! Can’t downplay colonies that big. The tank just had unnatural looking growth form, which was something I was previously talking about in this thread, so I used it as an example as to what I was describing earlier. I would love to see how things grow over time in your tank with those lights if your keeping acropora.
I have a tank thread I just started in the sps forum. You can visit it as I update it and give feedback, good OR not good it won’t bother me I would actually appreciate any criticism I can get. Sometimes I learn new things this way too. I use halides and led too.
 

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spirited conversation. I'm running t5 ho. I keep my fixtures cool and my tubes last a lot longer. I've seen good growth and great color. I'm happy with my choice. also I can get tubes pretty cheap on ebay.
 

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Spirited is good, hopefully we can keep it that way. But these topics always end up as a M/H Vs. LED war, with the T5 guys sitting back laughing I think lol. I like all of them but will lean towards M/H, especially looking at the Ecotech and Orphek reviews lately. I think most people also use a combination of technologies too and I feel the reason to supplement is what puts M/H on top. M/H users supplement for aesthetics and not to add performance where as it's the other way around I feel for the LED users adding T5s.
 

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Downplaying? I said it was an awesome tank don’t get to upset about it, I mean the colonies are huge! Can’t downplay colonies that big. The tank just had unnatural looking growth form, which was something I was previously talking about in this thread, so I used it as an example as to what I was describing earlier. I would love to see how things grow over time in your tank with those lights if your keeping acropora.
I have a tank thread I just started in the sps forum. You can visit it as I update it and give feedback, good OR not good it won’t bother me I would actually appreciate any criticism I can get. Sometimes I learn new things this way too. I use halides and led too.
Im not here to criticize and would gladly offer help or feedback if i can. I have acros in my build and so far growth is better that i experienced using radions, time will tell for sure.

 

naterealbig

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The Orpheks were mounted at a minimum of 12 inches. For most of the lighting test, BRS mounts lights 6-8 inches. This is almost double the height of all....

To be fair.... the reason BRS mounted then that high is because that's what it took to minimize the visible color separation of LEDs..... many threads i have read mention ~ 16" above water to eliminate this.
 

naterealbig

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I love my Halides, and i also like the deep blue supplementation from the Orphek bars i have flanking them. I might consider the Radions, but I'm looking at $7200 for just the LEDs I'd need to cover my new tank.... And roughly the same for the V4s. 4 brand new ballasts, brand new reflectors, and new 250w bulbs are $900.... That's just too much coral and fish i can buy for $6k. AND i simply just don't have that kind of cash to drop all at once....
 
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A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

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