MH, how many of you have GFCI problems?

[infinite0180]

Hey guys,

i just got started down the MH journey! Having some nuisance tripping on my brand new 20 amp circuit for the fish tank Im running a brand new Icecap 250w ballast. Im currently trying to avoid running it on an unprotected outlet. Im working with Coralvue as well but im going to try it on a different GFCI circuit that i have access to. Anyways, whats your experience? Does the 400w work any better with new GFCI outlets?

 

[infinite0180]

Cant imagine im the only one...

 

[infinite0180]

@Brew12 i know you had some great advice in the past for me!

what do you think? I read that gfci detects the total amperage leakage. Maybe sometimes its just too much when the light kicks on. When i installed my new 20 amp circuit i ran one gfci outlet and then two regular outlets on the load side to save a few bucks. Im thinking maybe i go out a buy two new gfci outlets, replace the two standard outlets (running them off pigtails like there currently are) and switch the original gfci outlet to a stand alone by taking the wire off the load side and instead adding pigtails and wire nuts. So now instead of 6 outlets protected by 1 gfci i have a stand alone gfci in each gang. Then i could put an eb4 on its one gang. What do you think?

 

[oreo54]

Gfci detect the difference in current between line and load.
6 mA or more..

Leakage is additive.
When several items are connected to the same GFCI protected circuit, potential current leakage from each will sum together. If each item has an acceptable leakage of 2 ma, then 3 or 4 items will cause the GFCI device to trip. Try to isolate each load on separate, temporary GFCI devices. If one trips, that load is a problem. If none trip, the sum of the leakages is the problem and separate GFCI protection devices will solve the problem.

Short of a total circuit analysis or hunt and peck just parallel off the feed line.

One gfci for ballasts one for downstream.
Ect.
So yes you have the right idea.

 

[infinite0180]

Gfci detect the difference in current between line and load.
6 mA or more..

Short of a total circuit analysis or hunt and peck just parallel off the feed line.

One gfci for ballasts one for downstream.
Ect.
So yes you have the right idea.

Yea thats exactly what i was thinking. Im pretty sure i read that exact quote yesterday. Sounds like 3 gfci outlets in parallel is the best move. If not then i guess i just run the light unprotected...

 

[Suspect]

FWIW I had a problem 3 years ago with a Giesemann T5 unit tripping multiple Legrand brand GFCI outlets on different circuits. Switched the outlet with a Hubbell brand and have had no problems since.

 

[infinite0180]

FWIW I had a problem 3 years ago with a Giesemann T5 unit tripping multiple Legrand brand GFCI outlets on different circuits. Switched the outlet with a Hubbell brand and have had no problems since.

Yea it deff could be my particular outlet (it is Legrand) is sensitive...

 

[revhtree]

Off topic but I dreamed I dropped a plugged in drop chord in my tank last night and tripped the GFCI! Ha!

 

[KrisReef]

Yes, if it's tripping there is either a loose wire downstream or the particular GFCI isn't working properly and should be replaced?

Is the tank grounded?

 

[zalick]

I don’t have the issue but I’m installing the following for my MH today:

breakout GFCI outlets for each halide.
Here are mine for my heaters.

 

[infinite0180]

Yes, if it's tripping there is either a loose wire downstream or the particular GFCI isn't working properly and should be replaced?

Is the tank grounded?

Gfci is working properly. The MH ballast is the only thing that trips it. Yes i run a grounding probe as well

I don’t have the issue but I’m installing the following for my MH today:

breakout GFCI outlets for each halide.
Here are mine for my heaters.

I have considered this as well! So your energy bar is not plugged into a gfci circuit, right?

 

[zalick]

Gfci is working properly. The MH ballast is the only thing that trips it. Yes i run a grounding probe as well

I have considered this as well! So your energy bar is not plugged into a gfci circuit, right?

Correct. Everything is individually protected by GFCI then plugged in to powerbar. That way any trip won’t take out anything else.

 

[A. grandis]

Have you considered plugging those powerbars to a surge protector?
That is how I run here. The surge protector protects the powerbar/controller. I also have a dedicated surge protector for the chiller.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 i know you had some great advice in the past for me!

what do you think? I read that gfci detects the total amperage leakage. Maybe sometimes its just too much when the light kicks on. When i installed my new 20 amp circuit i ran one gfci outlet and then two regular outlets on the load side to save a few bucks. Im thinking maybe i go out a buy two new gfci outlets, replace the two standard outlets (running them off pigtails like there currently are) and switch the original gfci outlet to a stand alone by taking the wire off the load side and instead adding pigtails and wire nuts. So now instead of 6 outlets protected by 1 gfci i have a stand alone gfci in each gang. Then i could put an eb4 on its one gang. What do you think?

There are two issues with MH lights that can make them challenging with GFCI's. First is the high voltage generated by the ballast. Ideally when the ballast fires to turn on the light it wouldn't trip the GFCI. In reality, the very high voltage combined with even small amount of dirt, can cause a very short duration ground fault that trips the GFCI. It's not a safety issue because the fault clears in fractions of a second but it happens.
When a MH turns on it is essentially drawing an arc. Arcs have high harmonic content which can also cause a GFCI to have problems. Newer GFCI's have improved and aren't nearly as sensitive as older GFCI's but they aren't always going to fix it.
And yes, I am a huge fan of running systems on multiple GFCI's in parallel.

Hope that answers your question!

 

[Brew12]

I don’t have the issue but I’m installing the following for my MH today:

breakout GFCI outlets for each halide.
Here are mine for my heaters.

I love this! Thanks for sharing!

 

[infinite0180]

Have you considered plugging those powerbars to a surge protector?
That is how I run here. The surge protector protects the powerbar/controller. I also have a dedicated surge protector for the chiller.

I am running a high quality surge protector! I never go without one of those.

There are two issues with MH lights that can make them challenging with GFCI's. First is the high voltage generated by the ballast. Ideally when the ballast fires to turn on the light it wouldn't trip the GFCI. In reality, the very high voltage combined with even small amount of dirt, can cause a very short duration ground fault that trips the GFCI. It's not a safety issue because the fault clears in fractions of a second but it happens.
When a MH turns on it is essentially drawing an arc. Arcs have high harmonic content which can also cause a GFCI to have problems. Newer GFCI's have improved and aren't nearly as sensitive as older GFCI's but they aren't always going to fix it.
And yes, I am a huge fan of running systems on multiple GFCI's in parallel.

Hope that answers your question!

Thanks! What are your thoughts on running the light on non gfci protected outlet?

 

[Brew12]

I am running a high quality surge protector! I never go without one of those.

Thanks! What are your thoughts on running the light on non gfci protected outlet?

I don't have a problem with it providing it is well mounted and not likely to fall into the tank, it's high enough above the tank to not be subject to fine salt mist, and you take them down 2 or 3 times a year to clean them. I feel that the lights become fairly low risk at that point.

 

[infinite0180]

I don't have a problem with it providing it is well mounted and not likely to fall into the tank, it's high enough above the tank to not be subject to fine salt mist, and you take them down 2 or 3 times a year to clean them. I feel that the lights become fairly low risk at that point.

Light is hanging via two M5 threaded rods and bolts about 13 inches above water. I do plan to move it an inch or two lower once everything adjusts to it. Theres very low risk of it falling in but i suppose the threads could strip or a nut could come loose. Im pretty OCD and check it regularly though. Bulb changes are going to force me to take it down at-least once a year. I really hate the idea of it being unprotected. Lets say it falls in when im not home, the breaker on the ballast or at the panel would blow before it caused a fire (at least theoretically), right? If i came down and saw the light in the water theres no way id touch the water without shutting off the main to the panel first...

 

[Brew12]

Light is hanging via two M5 threaded rods and bolts about 13 inches above water. I do plan to move it an inch or two lower once everything adjusts to it. Theres very low risk of it falling in but i suppose the threads could strip or a nut could come loose. Im pretty OCD and check it regularly though. Bulb changes are going to force me to take it down at-least once a year. I really hate the idea of it being unprotected. Lets say it falls in when im not home, the breaker on the ballast or at the panel would blow before it caused a fire (at least theoretically), right? If i came down and saw the light in the water theres no way id touch the water without shutting off the main to the panel first...

That is a very nice installation. I wouldn't have much in the way of worry. It's always best to use GFCI imo, but some times it just can't be done reliably. And yes, something as catastrophic as it dropping into the tank should trip the breaker almost immediately. The metal light housing should be directly connected to ground. If it drops in salt water the current should shoot up high enough to trip the breaker immediately.
I would be more concerned about a double insulated light (2 prong). Those could take longer to trip since they don't have that immediate ground path.

 

[infinite0180]

That is a very nice installation. I wouldn't have much in the way of worry. It's always best to use GFCI imo, but some times it just can't be done reliably. And yes, something as catastrophic as it dropping into the tank should trip the breaker almost immediately. The metal light housing should be directly connected to ground. If it drops in salt water the current should shoot up high enough to trip the breaker immediately.
I would be more concerned about a double insulated light (2 prong). Those could take longer to trip since they don't have that immediate ground path.

Thanks, it took some effort to come up with that but i find it much nicer than the wire hanging kit! And yea the metal housing is grounded, i saw the wire when i was changing the bulb, so thats good. I think im going to change my circuit to 3 gfci outlets in parallel and isolate it on its own. If that doesnt work ill just put it on a normal outlet.