Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

maroun.c

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Here you can see bubbles still stuck in ridges, underneath my Montipora several hours after bubbling.
This is an everyday occurrence and you'll notice the complete absence of dead spots or necrotic tissue.

IMG_3765.JPG
Isn't the presence of bubbles hours after bubbling a sign of poor flow in that spot? How about programming flow (when possible) for a period with high flow intensity after bubbling? Would you recommend that?
 
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Squamosa

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sign of poor flow in that spot

Yes, probably, but short of sticking a nozzle under there to blow things away,which might upset the coral tissue more, It is how it is :)

programming flow (when possible) for a period with high flow intensity after bubbling? Would you recommend that?

Sure, great flow while bubbling should be beneficial and an intense burst of multidirectional flow, say, for a few minutes, 10-20 min after bubbling ceases, can be included.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Attached is an image why nanobubbles act in ways that Boyle's law cannot address... Because the IDEAL GAS LAW doesn't apply as you shrink smaller and smaller... In this case this is why nanobubbles stay suspended in solution longer than regular microbubbles... and why they do not rise to the surface because as the bubble gets smaller and smaller, the buoyancy calculation become negligible.


Balance of Energy Forces in Nanobubbles and Colloidal Suspension.jpg

I hate to be a nag, but the picture you posted shows why they repel each other. What does that have to do with Boyles Laws, the Ideal Gas Law, or buoyancy?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Remarkable, this is the first thing everyone notices :)

I'm curious about the smell.

Are you folks saying it smells more, less, or just differently?

Does it continue to smell many hours after the bubbling has stopped?

The small that folks associate with the real ocean are small organic molecules, such as dimethylsulfide and a variety of other compounds. So somehow you are shifting the amount of some of these compounds that are being released to the air.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I don't see why a limited amount of bubbling (compared to skimming) would result in significant effect on O2 levels. Not arguing the benefits of actual contact of bubbles in rocks and corals which although happens in nature still has to have controlled comparison studies to prove if it's really the reason behind added growth or improved colors.

I'm not convinced folks here are making nanobubbles, but true nanobubbles of very small size (like 20 nm) can, under some circumstances have higher pressure inside due to the surface tension of the air/water interface (at least until organics accumulate) and this increase in pressure can theoretically drive gas values higher than expected.

Some theories claim the pressure in the bubbles should be super high (e.g., a thousand atmospheres), and ought to drive the gas molecules into the water almost instantly. Since that does not happen, the overall understanding is flawed somehow. Either the pressure is not really that high, or something is keeping the gas in the bubbles. Since the bubbles are more stable than expected, the potential for N2/O2 getting massively too high is not as great. Here's an article on a research group claiming one hypothesis of why, but others quoted in the paper do not believe it:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2011/sep/12/flowing-gas-helps-nanobubbles-stick-around
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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'The rapid increase in the pressure of bubbles during shrinkage is due to adiabatic compression when the rate of increase is high, which also causes the temperature in the bubbles to rapidly increase. This results in the formation of a region with a temperature of several thousand centigrade under a pressure of several thousand atm at the point where the bubble disappears. This ultimate reaction site (hot spot) is limited to a very small region but the reaction is sufficiently strong to decompose internal gas molecules, generating free radicals such as •OH with strong oxidizing power. Free radicals are also generated in the course of natural collapse of microbubbles by hydrodynamic engineering, although its mechanism is different from that of the collapse from ultrasonic engineering'

Folks should understand that the paragraph above is something that happens when applying ultrasound to water with bubbles in it, causing cavitation. The primary description, except the comment about free radicals, is not something that necessarily happens to bubbles when just floating around an aquarium. :)

The sentence two lines before the above paragraph clarifies this:

"Upon the irradiation of an ultrasonic wave into water, the sound pressure fluctuates, during which bubble’s cavitation are generated under negative pressure and then rapidly compressed by the subsequent high-pressure wave. "

FWIW, this might be a cautionary paper. Free radicals are not generally believed to be desirable to expose living tissue to. They damage organic molecules, and hence all the interest in other molecules to scoop up free radicals: antioxidants.
 
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Does it continue to smell many hours after the bubbling has stopped?

Two to three hours, I've noticed.

The small that folks associate with the real ocean are small organic molecules, such as dimethylsulfide and a variety of other compounds. So somehow you are shifting the amount of some of these compounds that are being released to the air.

Wow, DMS! I did a quick read here http://www.popsci.com.au/science/why-does-the-sea-smell-like-the-sea,391201 furthermore, what I was talking about in my earlier post might be or smells like, dictyopterenes.

I had no idea they quantified the smell of the ocean, fantastic...now what does it mean? :D
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I had no idea they quantified the smell of the ocean, fantastic...now what does it mean? :D

That's a good question.

The reason I asked about the time is that one could imagine that the bubbling would help less volatile compounds to move to the gas phase (in the bubbles) and ultimately make it to the air to be smelled, or possibly even that popping bubbles are delivering tiny tank water aerosols to the air that make their way to your nose for detection.

But if it smells hours later (and the bubbles have been gone for a while), then it is probably something else.
 

Cruz_Arias

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I hate to be a nag, but the picture you posted shows why they repel each other. What does that have to do with Boyles Laws, the Ideal Gas Law, or buoyancy?
It shows that there are other forces, not just Boyle's Law. Van DerWaals, Electrostatic attraction, etc as you shrink the bubble further and further and that there is a point of balance internal and external to the bubble that allows the phase to be in equilibrium... the gas within the bubble had not changed (N2, O2, other gases) just the size... I was trying to explain it with "balance of forces" is what is the misunderstanding, not just the ideal gas law (and developed Boyle's Law that builds off the Ideal Gas Law) that a lot of people keep mentioning.

Similarly, that is how an ant can carry 100 times it's weight without being crushed. The composition of the ant with a chitin exoskeleton does not change... the chitin is still chitin... but relative to the size of the ant itself, other forces have less impact based on surface area such as gravity, surface tension of water (water glider) and so on and so forth.

Sorry... I didn't clarify the use of the picture.
 

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Folks should understand that the paragraph above is something that happens when applying ultrasound to water with bubbles in it, causing cavitation. The primary description, except the comment about free radicals, is not something that necessarily happens to bubbles when just floating around an aquarium. :)

The sentence two lines before the above paragraph clarifies this:

"Upon the irradiation of an ultrasonic wave into water, the sound pressure fluctuates, during which bubble’s cavitation are generated under negative pressure and then rapidly compressed by the subsequent high-pressure wave. "

FWIW, this might be a cautionary paper. Free radicals are not generally believed to be desirable to expose living tissue to. They damage organic molecules, and hence all the interest in other molecules to scoop up free radicals: antioxidants.
I am wondering if I will see significant ORP changes without parallel pH change...
 

Cruz_Arias

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I am wondering if I will see significant ORP changes without parallel pH change...
We have continued to see ORP climb up to (current max value was 452) while pH remained at 8.4, Alk @ 10dKH.
We are attempting to repeat this test in multiple tank setups and other dKH values (in other hobbyists systems) to confirm that this observation is repeatable and consistent in "theory".

The hypothesis is that the pH will only rise up to the point of the solution's buffering capacity and stay there regardless of the D.O. (dissolved oxygen) increase and ORP (Oxidation-Reduction Potential) increase.

So far, from the few tests, pH varied from 8.1 to 8.5 relationally (anecdote?) on dKH levels 7.5 to 10
 
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Cruz_Arias

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@Randy Holmes-Farley @Lasse @Squamosa

There was a question about volatiles and smells, etc.
There was a number of chemical manufacturing facilities publications that explained how CO2 was forced out of solution by diffusing clean CO2 scrubbed atmospheric air into a water purification system.

The gist was, dissolve (diffuse) as much (CCSAA) clean CO2 scrubbed atmospheric air to saturation to drive off unwanted gases including methane, H2S, and other rancid smelling gases.

The thought around this (I believe) is similar in keeping a computer server room slightly pressurized, through air conditioning, (0.5 to 1.5 inches wc) to prevent dust from being sucked into the room.

So if the aquarium (which can absorb gases from the environment) absorbs CO2 we would be able to "slightly pressurize" the water from being able to absorb the CO2 from the environment by pumping in and infusing the water with fresh atmospheric air.
This infusion of "atmospheric air" via the nanobubbles/microbubbles, forces out any gas out of solution.

Similar to osmosis and reverse osmosis premises...

Manufacturing Industry calls this degasifying.

Degassifying by atmospheric infusion.jpg
 
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cb684

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We have continued to see ORP climb up to (current max value was 452) while pH remained at 8.4, Alk @ 10dKH.
We are attempting to repeat this test in multiple tank setups and other dKH values (in other hobbyists systems) to confirm that this observation is repeatable and consistent in "theory".

The hypothesis is that the pH will only rise up to the point of the solution's buffering capacity and stay there regardless of the D.O. (dissolved oxygen) increase and ORP (Oxidation-Reduction Potential) increase.

So far, from the few tests, pH varied from 8.1 to 8.5 relationally (anecdote?) on dKH levels 7.5 to 10

Are you sure is not bubbles covering the probe? I mean, this is one of the potential causes, right?
 

cb684

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A while ago I had a lot of clay in my pond. I tried a lot of things to clear the water, but what ended up working was poly-fill.


As far as I know clay particles are negatively charged (right?), so would that also help to remove nanobubbles from the system?
 

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