Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

neuwave

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Attached is an image why nanobubbles act in ways that Boyle's law cannot address... Because the IDEAL GAS LAW doesn't apply as you shrink smaller and smaller... In this case this is why nanobubbles stay suspended in solution longer than regular microbubbles... and why they do not rise to the surface because as the bubble gets smaller and smaller, the buoyancy calculation become negligible.


Balance of Energy Forces in Nanobubbles and Colloidal Suspension.jpg
I am also confused why you keep referring to Boyle's law? I'm not understanding your reasoning. To make it easier please show your work so we can better understand why you chose to explain to us why Boyle's law does not work. If we see the calculations it would be easier to understand.

Boyle's law equation P1V1=P2V2.

Did you use PV=nRT or P=pRT as part of your calculation?

Also what units did you use when you calculated it?
 
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Squamosa

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any references to papers I can read that show nano bubbles being created by wood airstones and pump impellers
There are none!

I believe we have done a good review of the past literature, identified gaps in the knowledge and are now ready to test a few hypotheses (or are testing already :) ).

One being, that if we create air bubbles by the wooden block method, can we say that we are producing nanobubbles and if so, what is the percentage of bubbles created related to airflow into the stone.

Currently, there are several methods used to produce true nano sized bubbles:
Rotational liquid flow method
Static mixer type
Ejector type
Venturi type
Dissolved air floatation type

And without liquid flow you have the:
Capillary type
Rotating type
Ultrasound type
Vapour condensation type
Electrolysis type

Please read more here: Tsuge, H. ed., 2014. Micro-and Nanobubbles: Fundamentals and Applications. CRC Press.
 
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Squamosa

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I would look at your sand bed if it is visible...

Another hobbyist (who was able to produce very fine fine bubbles sent this to me to show how the sandbed became more "spongy" and better aerated.)
@Squamosa
12443448_492576597614324_838748050_o.jpg
That must be the unmistakable look of Brian's sand bed...no? :D
 

Cruz_Arias

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That must be the unmistakable look of Brian's sand bed...no? :D
Yes... it was a very good picture, by Brian.

It shows aeration of the sand bed very very well, plus the ideal bubble size compared to the sand particles...

Definitely an awesome shot...
 
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Squamosa

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Yes... it was a very good picture, by Brian.

It shows aeration of the sand bed very very well, plus the ideal bubble size compared to the sand particles...

Definitely an awesome shot...
He has an awesome tank :)
However, he can't beat my boysenberry shortcake for colour (I can say that because he's not on this forum) :p:p:D
 
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Squamosa

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I think this next graphic is very powerful, either this little coral was just gathering strength and encrusting the base (as many people observe with little frags), until it could shoot those axials out or..........??
Acro compare12.jpg
 
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Squamosa

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I think this next graphic is very powerful, either this little coral was just gathering strength and encrusting the base (as many people observe with little frags), until it could shoot those axials out or..........??
Acro compare12.jpg
We've all experienced growth like this or a growth spurt of some duration, but have we ever asked ourselves why is this happening, is there some reason?

Did I adjust my lighting, did my flow change, have I got my alk, ca and mag ratios just right, did my nutrients drop/rise and pushed the corals on to grow, did the addition of extra nutrients help spur growth?....it goes on!

I believe that I've tried to remove all of these variables, or as many as I can think of, by keeping the status quo the same in my system for several months now.
Changes, as described in detail above, started occurring once the bubbles started....I really believe this!

This is a quote from the macro guy, courtesy of Diesel.... 'I feel there're a lot of people grabbing at straws to either make microscrubbing seem negative, or just arguing to argue because they don't want to try it, I don't know? I'm surprised at the amount of push back from something that doesn't cost over $100 and is reef related lol.

There is no way to 100% pinpoint the claims made by EC without thousands of dollars research and testing and isolating, but there are plenty of people who will dump a new chemical in their tanks that has passed ZERO fda testing or even bothers to include the chemicals on the bottles, just cause it says it will color up corals or clear water, etc.


There is no money or ploy to be made from microscrubbing, it is essentially free source code, you need a wood or fine ceramic air stone and an air pump on a timer.


As far as benefits, it's somewhat simple to figure out,


-Stable PH throughout the entire tanks cycle, day and night, low CO2 build up at night. So what benefits from stable PH and no CO2 build up? The list would go on for pages.


-Less organics in the water column. So what benefits when the tank has low nitrates,phosphates, and not alot of particles floating around to bind to the particles your sps and corals eat?


-More O2 for live stock. Everything life form wise benefits from a little more oxygen, people included, what's to say the same does not benefit our corals and fish? So now we need a list of all the benefits from more oxygen.


I wish I could give everyone detailed analysis, statistics, videos, samples, and certified scientist in a white coat to come point out stuff on an Excel Graph chart, but I can't. All I can say is try it? If you don't see any improvement or notice any changes, then stop .


I will say without a doubt, I believe my parameters stay stable because I'm Microscrubbing. 40 clownfish fed 4 times a day, 20 nems, sps colonies, lps tons of micro fauna, and a 20% water change once a month.


Happy reefing!! It's all about learning and trying new things. Who would've thought that 10 years ago an LED fixture would've been enough to grow SPS?



Something so simple as air....... But why not?'

How many times have you bought something reef related from the LFS only because the college kid behind the counter told you it works great and then gone on to put the bottle of liquid, gadget or gizmo in your tank?
You weren't even talking to a faceless person on the internet you were looking someone in the eye!

I believe we have put forward a very large body of evidence already, for the positive aspects of this methodology.
When was the last time that kid at the LFS took 5 days to explain to you how something worked or gave you any evidence for its benefits, either by having tested it himself or knew someone who had?

'Open source code', I believe we and others, have already built on it :)
 

Thales

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I would look at your sand bed if it is visible...

Another hobbyist (who was able to produce very fine fine bubbles sent this to me to show how the sandbed became more "spongy" and better aerated.)
@Squamosa
12443448_492576597614324_838748050_o.jpg
Hi everyone,
Just want to interject that bubbles in the sand bed is a pretty common thing and may have nothing to do with bubbling:
https://www.google.com/search?q=bubbles+in+sand+bed&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw3q_3tvDLAhWEPiYKHel3B14QsAQIKw&biw=1149&bih=626
 

Cruz_Arias

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Cruz_Arias

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After the water column is at a balance in gas saturation, our sand bed takes on gas pockets... and it persists since we NANObubble daily.

But I'd also like to hear from others on their observation regarding aeration of sandbed as well.

Would be a very interesting observation for biodiversity and clean up crews that go under the sand and stir it up... :)
 

Cruz_Arias

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I am also confused why you keep referring to Boyle's law? I'm not understanding your reasoning. To make it easier please show your work so we can better understand why you chose to explain to us why Boyle's law does not work. If we see the calculations it would be easier to understand.

Boyle's law equation P1V1=P2V2.

Did you use PV=nRT or P=pRT as part of your calculation?

Also what units did you use when you calculated it?
LoL... no...

People kept referring that bubbles expand as it rises in the water column.
As the nanobubble is extremely small, it doesn't apply directly.

They tend to stay suspended in the water column regardless of depth. And do not rise like the bubbles we are used to seeing in the hobby.

So in this case, nanobubbles do not adhere to expanding volume as pressure exerted on it decreases... at least what I've read from what the scientists that are studying it are saying.
 
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Cruz_Arias

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Lol my leaky pump on thenprotien skimmer isndoing it for me. Does this count?
LoL we've been asked that same question before if a low return chamber water level is the same...

I know my answer is, no...

If it is sucking in "fresh air" not ladened with CO2, perhaps.

However with the airpump in an area of known fresh air such as by a breathing window, or open window, you're probably guaranteed it's fresh air... (disclaimer... make sure the bug exterminator does not spray around the intake, etc that would be very bad)
 
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Squamosa

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I think I read a post somewhere asking if you notice any difference in skimmate.

This is 72 hrs worth from my system!
The skimmer cup holds 3L.

No iron was dosed prior to or during this time!
Disgusting :eek::eek:
IMG_3775.JPG
 
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Squamosa

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I'd also like to hear from others on their observation regarding aeration of sandbed as well.
My sand bed does not show this interesting phenomenon.
It is very fine oolitic aragonite sand,with a diameter of 0.25-1mm.
It is neither pearly white nor is it dirty brown in colour, it always seems to remain the same in colour. Nassarius and Strombus snails keep it turned over.

The sand substrate you see in the picture posted earlier, is a very fine (0,5mm) silica based sand!
I don't know if the type of sand makes a difference, others will possibly post some comments about their sand beds :)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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LoL... no...

People kept referring that bubbles expand as it rises in the water column.
As the nanobubble is extremely small, it doesn't apply directly.

They tend to stay suspended in the water column regardless of depth. And do not rise like the bubbles we are used to seeing in the hobby.

So in this case, nanobubbles do not adhere to expanding volume as pressure exerted on it decreases... at least what I've read from what the scientists that are studying it are saying.
They may not expand and contract exactly as predicted based on the ideal gas law, but they will expand and contract based on the outside and inside pressure, as well as the surface tension, all of which will change as a bubble moves up and down, organics bind to the surface, and gases enter or leave the bubble.

Just consider the extremes to know this must be true to at least soem extent. ;)
 
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