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there is nothing to be discussed all three lightning options can provide similar results with no or very little difference . it now just narrows down to the individuals preference and capabilities . only thing to be discussed is why in the world do you keep spamming the same thing and want all of us to believe that this is the way . IMO your approach made people that wanted to try MH now certain that they never want to .the importance of the subject is what should be discussed.
I just remembered this from most of my led seen tanks.Here we go guys...
There is absolutely no comparison in results between LEDs and halides in many ways IMO. No matter what you guys say. If you have experience with halides you know there is something there that T5s and LEDs don't have. Are they better? For the RESULTS I want, yes!!!! There is no way to deny that. The corals are healthier, the colonies grow uniform and the true pigmentation is formed like in the ocean. The light is well distributed throughout the whose system when using the right reflector. The wide range of pigmentation produced by the corals under halides can't be beaten by any other light. They do resist to diseases like STN and RTN more than when they just survive under LEDs. Life is easier! Many have told me that, by observation, practically. That is why I think their immunization is also boosted. I don't need any scientific paper to tell me what we already know that happens. It's fact. Some friends also say halides will also be great against brown jelly disease. All anecdotal.
We can't prove most of the benefits we SEE under halides and DON'T SEE under LEDs scientifically. Do you need any scientific proof for what you see? How silly is that!!! Now... how many friends I have that use LEDs for WHATEVER REASON THEY FIND and see some halide tank and say " What?... that light kick buts" !?!? It does! LOL! The fact of the matter is that the RESULTS are much better in MY standards and the majority that actually had experiences with both will have to agree, and miss their halides. Is that a crime? You want to call that "personal preference"? So be! You like your colonies to be under blue LEDs? You like the colony structure to grow all weird? Fine. I don't. Still to this date I've never seen RESULTS from LEDs just like metal halides. It could be ok, but not the same in my opinion. So, after all that I would think we should at least consider and respect those who want to have it. Is it ok to PROMOTE HALIDES? Yes. Should we have them available for those who want to buy? Yes.
So, I THINK that after Mike revisited some of his pictures from when he had halides he is starting to realize that he just can't have the exact same RESULTS using LEDs for all the past years. Would that be something to think about? I think so.
What I THINK, and by my observations, is that the IR radiation from halides provide very similar radiation the sun emits. The spectrum from halides is from UV to IR, therefore a complete spectrum that can be used in high intensity, safely, providing everything (or almost everything in lighting) that the sun provides in the ocean and the LEDs CAN'T simply because they are not like halides in any way! The growth from halides is superb. There is no doubt that halides grow corals faster than LEDs. Period! The shimmering (caustic lines) is so similar to the sun that if you watch videos you just can't tell apart. Kids know that! LOL! Ask your grandma!!! She will tell you the truth! Ha! We actually had a reefer here that switched from LEDs to halides and his grandma said something like that.. LOL, anyways..
Now, when Mike was saying his LEDs were the best thing in the world, all LED users loved him so much! "Oh, see, he is one of the best authors out there, blah, blah, blah..." I said it would be just a matter of time until he would see the results and would go back to halides. I also said, and still say, same thing about Dr. Sanjay, the "guru of reef lighting"! I still believe he will get his halides back over his tank. Point is that most LED user defends their purchases like crazy (confirmation bias), or they don't care about results, or they actually don't know any better. You guys want LED to be the future, I get it. I once though it would be so great to have those "benefits" so many talked about. Too bad it doesn't work in practice. Unless you like those results. I don't.
If one of the most experienced guys in the world, that grows corals like mad, who really know reef lighting, who actually wrote so many important SCIENTIFIC ARTICLES and performed SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS throughout his life about lighting, says halides will be still the best for his tank, even though he is still using one of the best selling LEDs ever... WOULD YOU BELIEVE? Do you think you know better? LOL!!!!!! Sorry, Dr. Sanjay knows better. You need any scientific paper to go against his thoughts? Are you joking? LOL!
BUT... see... I still respect you LED uses. I do! I have so many friends using LEDs... I know it's your tank and you do whatever you want. Just try to be more rational. Can you actually prove LEDs are BETTER than halide in terms of QUALITY of light using ANY scientific paper?? NO! If scientists can't prove halides are better, no one can, right? Besides, scientific experiments are performed in a total different manner from what we keep out tanks. The results from our systems are what we should look for. I think.
I'm glad Mike will try halides again. He is looking forward to make his tank better and will use his LEDs as a secondary source of light, what I've been suggested for so many years. Is that a problem? Yes, I'm happy to hear that. What if he doesn't like halides after he tries again? LOL! Will that mater to you then? LOL! Will your bias be conformed then?
I know what I want. Do you? That is what matters, my friends. Everyone is different and everyone will choose what fits best.
Go to a store that knows what they are doing and find a halide tank and cry in front of it!!!! You will have your heart stopped by the amazing MAGIC of those bulbs!!! Ha! Chiller will help in most cases! If you need a chiller you need a chiller.
Mike has been saying for years and years that his best tank ever was that 500gallon. He thought size would be the main reason why. I said the halides was the main reason. I think now he kinda understands some of my points.
Here are some shots of his tanks...
LEDS:
Mike Paletta's New Tank is UP and Running
Mike Paletta updates us on his 500-gallon reef tank.www.reef2reef.com
METAL HALIDES:
My New Tank: By Mike Paletta
My New Tank: By Mike Paletta As I wrote in my last article for ReefBuilders last December, I am planning on setting up one last tank for myself. Over the years I have set up a fair number of tanks for myself as well as assisted on over 100 more...www.reef2reef.com
Building my Last Reef Tank | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog
As the year winds down we tend to look back on our failures and successes and the major events of the year, as well as ahead to the things that we want to accomplish and what we are looking forward to.reefbuilders.com
BOOM!!!
Start a build thread so we all can follow!@90's reefer ….came from halides, to now Orpheks……like them a lot. good color and spread. Maybe not as good as my halides but not far off. Recently moved and set the tank back up after a disaster late last summer. So it’s kind of like starting a whole new build a d starting with leds as I lost all my corals. Interesting to see the new chapter in my tank.
I run 2 full panels on my tank
corey
I think these pictures are enough for me to pass on the halides. I don't care if they are better at growing corals, look at that monstrosity over the tank. I would never want or could think of getting the wife to accept having something so ugly in the living room regardless of the beautiful corals. So I will stick with my allegedly worst performing leds that Mike Paletta doesn't like anymore and grow my corals a bit slower.Here we go guys...
There is absolutely no comparison in results between LEDs and halides in many ways IMO. No matter what you guys say. If you have experience with halides you know there is something there that T5s and LEDs don't have. Are they better? For the RESULTS I want, yes!!!! There is no way to deny that. The corals are healthier, the colonies grow uniform and the true pigmentation is formed like in the ocean. The light is well distributed throughout the whose system when using the right reflector. The wide range of pigmentation produced by the corals under halides can't be beaten by any other light. They do resist to diseases like STN and RTN more than when they just survive under LEDs. Life is easier! Many have told me that, by observation, practically. That is why I think their immunization is also boosted. I don't need any scientific paper to tell me what we already know that happens. It's fact. Some friends also say halides will also be great against brown jelly disease. All anecdotal.
We can't prove most of the benefits we SEE under halides and DON'T SEE under LEDs scientifically. Do you need any scientific proof for what you see? How silly is that!!! Now... how many friends I have that use LEDs for WHATEVER REASON THEY FIND and see some halide tank and say " What?... that light kick buts" !?!? It does! LOL! The fact of the matter is that the RESULTS are much better in MY standards and the majority that actually had experiences with both will have to agree, and miss their halides. Is that a crime? You want to call that "personal preference"? So be! You like your colonies to be under blue LEDs? You like the colony structure to grow all weird? Fine. I don't. Still to this date I've never seen RESULTS from LEDs just like metal halides. It could be ok, but not the same in my opinion. So, after all that I would think we should at least consider and respect those who want to have it. Is it ok to PROMOTE HALIDES? Yes. Should we have them available for those who want to buy? Yes.
So, I THINK that after Mike revisited some of his pictures from when he had halides he is starting to realize that he just can't have the exact same RESULTS using LEDs for all the past years. Would that be something to think about? I think so.
What I THINK, and by my observations, is that the IR radiation from halides provide very similar radiation the sun emits. The spectrum from halides is from UV to IR, therefore a complete spectrum that can be used in high intensity, safely, providing everything (or almost everything in lighting) that the sun provides in the ocean and the LEDs CAN'T simply because they are not like halides in any way! The growth from halides is superb. There is no doubt that halides grow corals faster than LEDs. Period! The shimmering (caustic lines) is so similar to the sun that if you watch videos you just can't tell apart. Kids know that! LOL! Ask your grandma!!! She will tell you the truth! Ha! We actually had a reefer here that switched from LEDs to halides and his grandma said something like that.. LOL, anyways..
Now, when Mike was saying his LEDs were the best thing in the world, all LED users loved him so much! "Oh, see, he is one of the best authors out there, blah, blah, blah..." I said it would be just a matter of time until he would see the results and would go back to halides. I also said, and still say, same thing about Dr. Sanjay, the "guru of reef lighting"! I still believe he will get his halides back over his tank. Point is that most LED user defends their purchases like crazy (confirmation bias), or they don't care about results, or they actually don't know any better. You guys want LED to be the future, I get it. I once though it would be so great to have those "benefits" so many talked about. Too bad it doesn't work in practice. Unless you like those results. I don't.
If one of the most experienced guys in the world, that grows corals like mad, who really know reef lighting, who actually wrote so many important SCIENTIFIC ARTICLES and performed SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS throughout his life about lighting, says halides will be still the best for his tank, even though he is still using one of the best selling LEDs ever... WOULD YOU BELIEVE? Do you think you know better? LOL!!!!!! Sorry, Dr. Sanjay knows better. You need any scientific paper to go against his thoughts? Are you joking? LOL!
BUT... see... I still respect you LED uses. I do! I have so many friends using LEDs... I know it's your tank and you do whatever you want. Just try to be more rational. Can you actually prove LEDs are BETTER than halide in terms of QUALITY of light using ANY scientific paper?? NO! If scientists can't prove halides are better, no one can, right? Besides, scientific experiments are performed in a total different manner from what we keep out tanks. The results from our systems are what we should look for. I think.
I'm glad Mike will try halides again. He is looking forward to make his tank better and will use his LEDs as a secondary source of light, what I've been suggested for so many years. Is that a problem? Yes, I'm happy to hear that. What if he doesn't like halides after he tries again? LOL! Will that mater to you then? LOL! Will your bias be conformed then?
I know what I want. Do you? That is what matters, my friends. Everyone is different and everyone will choose what fits best.
Go to a store that knows what they are doing and find a halide tank and cry in front of it!!!! You will have your heart stopped by the amazing MAGIC of those bulbs!!! Ha! Chiller will help in most cases! If you need a chiller you need a chiller.
Mike has been saying for years and years that his best tank ever was that 500gallon. He thought size would be the main reason why. I said the halides was the main reason. I think now he kinda understands some of my points.
Here are some shots of his tanks...
LEDS:
Mike Paletta's New Tank is UP and Running
Mike Paletta updates us on his 500-gallon reef tank.www.reef2reef.com
METAL HALIDES:
My New Tank: By Mike Paletta
My New Tank: By Mike Paletta As I wrote in my last article for ReefBuilders last December, I am planning on setting up one last tank for myself. Over the years I have set up a fair number of tanks for myself as well as assisted on over 100 more...www.reef2reef.com
Building my Last Reef Tank | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog
As the year winds down we tend to look back on our failures and successes and the major events of the year, as well as ahead to the things that we want to accomplish and what we are looking forward to.reefbuilders.com
BOOM!!!
Ugly, lol. One persons ugly is anothers beauty.I think these pictures are enough for me to pass on the halides. I don't care if they are better at growing corals, look at that monstrosity over the tank. I would never want or could think of getting the wife to accept having something so ugly in the living room regardless of the beautiful corals. So I will stick with my allegedly worst performing leds that Mike Paletta doesn't like anymore and grow my corals a bit slower.
On another topic, I also have a tang in my 75g, I don't QT and I think corals are overpriced. Want to discuss that?
Still some of the tanks using LEDs can't reproduce exactly what we see under halides. Like Sanjay's tank, for example. Some of the corals are pale and lost their natural coloration they used to produce under the halides, even though he is using them at total power with all the channels to try, like the bright fluorescent yellow Porites he was talking about. That coral is now gray. He has been having 8 to 10 Radions over the tank and he said he still could fit more to try to achieve results. He also said we would need at least the same amount of watts to be able to try to get same results. Truth is that he is actually using MORE watts with his LEDs and still not achieving the results he had under halides, he said.I just remembered this from most of my led seen tanks.
People that run way more leds than is needed on their systems get the proper coverage, imo.
This is where halides shine. Less equals more when running halides.
A few who run way more led fixtures than the manufactures recommend have halide looking tanks with equal, imo, growth and health.
Also their is nothing wrong with promoting something you obviously stand behind and love.
Yes, That's true. Most commercial LEDs aren't what they should, or do not cover what they claim.My opinion… I ran halides for many years in the past. I ran lots of different bulb/ballast combinations on various tanks. Some of them grew corals well, some of them not so much. My most successful bulbs actually didn’t resemble todays LEDs at all. For example, XM10k was pretty yellow, yet it grew acros MUCH better than the very blue Radium.
Fast forward - I bought some off the shelf LEDs, and they were pretty crap at growing corals. No matter which I tried, they were either not providing enough PAR, or burning the SPS (sometimes BOTH at the same time).
Being a DIY guy, I decided to experiment with DIY LED fixtures. This was like 10 years ago. I tried different combinations of LEDs at different strengths and different optics. And lo and behold, some of these combos were just as good, if not better than Halides at growing corals. The ones that worked the best for me were large arrays without optics (wide angle). Without optics, you actually have to use a larger number of LEDs to deliver the proper PAR. But interestingly, I could deliver 500+ PAR to the corals without them being aggravated or burned to death. BTW these DIY arrays would end up costing about the same as commercial fixtures would.
My conclusion is that it’s not really that LEDs are inferior to halides, it’s that commercial implementations of LEDs are crap. Companies know people are measuring PAR, so they add highly focused optics to boost the PAR instead of adding LEDs, which is cheaper obviously. On top of that, they also try to replicate the spectrum of some of the least effective Halides - like the Radiums. If you compare the legendary XM10k to Radium, you’ll see the spectrum peaks are completely different. (I’m gonna catch flack for bashing the Radiums, I know).
Oh, and T5s only became “good at growing corals” after people forgot about halides.
Lol agree. Eye of the beholder.Ugly, lol. One persons ugly is anothers beauty.
Its all good. Run what you like as its always good to have choices.
My wife loves the industrial look of my lights. I also have an open welded steel stand which you would probably not like.
Ok tell me how much your wife would disaprove of this system, lol.
Yes corals are over priced!
Depends on the tang in the 75.
I dont QT either.
So lets get this straight he had one or 2 out of dozens of coral species change to a "bad" color?Still some of the tanks using LEDs can't reproduce exactly what we see under halides. Like Sanjay's tank, for example. Some of the corals are pale and lost their natural coloration they used to produce under the halides, even though he is using them at total power with all the channels to try, like the bright fluorescent yellow Porites he was talking about. That coral is now gray
There’s something to that though. I had zero success with true “yellow” corals under everything but halide. Had nothing to do with pigmentation under a different light. There are some colors that can be difficult (not impossible) under LED but are great under halide. In my experience the reverse of that is not true.So lets get this straight he had one or 2 out of dozens of coral species change to a "bad" color?
Diverging from unliked coloration to different coloration who exactly decides on what the " real" color should be.
Color shifts under different spectrum are a given regardless of tech. Dana has a nice vid on it.
Won' t even get into the reflective differences in spectrum that make identical pigments look a different color.
Interesting! My pink floyd, meller yeller are greenish under my halides with or without OR3 blue sky and plus. When the OR3's are on and halides off both are vivid yellow.There’s something to that though. I had zero success with true “yellow” corals under everything but halide. Had nothing to do with pigmentation under a different light. There are some colors that can be difficult (not impossible) under LED but are great under halide. In my experience the reverse of that is not true.
Are you talking growth or just color?There’s something to that though. I had zero success with true “yellow” corals under everything but halide. Had nothing to do with pigmentation under a different light. There are some colors that can be difficult (not impossible) under LED but are great under halide. In my experience the reverse of that is not true.