Mixed reef 50% corals 50% macro. Nitrates?

[KonradTO]

Hi all,
I am new to saltwater aquariums and I have been setting up my very first reef tank for a couple of months now.
I have an AIO fluval flex 32g whitout sump. As filtration system I have the original filter from the aquarium and an external filter on top of that, plus some 5-10 cm sand and live+dry rocks.
You can see how is set up my tank: one side corals one side macros.

Now, I am planning to start stocking with corals in a month or so, but the problem is that no matter how much I feed the tank, I can't raise nitrates/phosphates higher than 0. I am under stocked with only one big watchman goby+pistol shrimp, a tiny hermit and a lot of snails and pods.
I am very undecided on how to proceed, if stocking more fish before corals would solve the problem or starting to dose nitrogen (which would make pointless my original idea to use macros to control nutrients) or even leaving it as it is. I would love to put some duncans/torches/zoas for now but I am worried that if I have 0 nitrates they will starve quickly.
Is anyone here with a similar setup? What do you suggest?

 

[Aqua Man]

You can see how is set up my tank: one side corals one side macros.

Cool setup! How are the Macros doing? If they are growing then there most likely enough nutrients. Also your test kit may not be sensitive enough to pick up very low amounts of N/P

@inland_reef has a similar set up. Check out his build!

 

[Eatfrenchfries]

I would look to increase your stock little by little to handle it. I have a mixed reef with heavy NPS that is connected to a display fuge.

I feed heavily and have explosive macro growth. Nutritients were something I would worry about too when setting up but adding little by little went a long way in making sure everything adjusted with each addition.

I run a 20 gallon display with 7 fish, 2 conches, snails, hermits, porcelain, sexy, and a bunch of filter feeders. 10 gallon display fige with 14 types of macro, blue oyster for filtration, dove snails, and all of my unwanted hitchhikers.

Remember, you want your macro to grow into "your" nutrient needs. Not your nutrients grow into your macro needs because then it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

 

[KonradTO]

Cool setup! How are the Macros doing? If they are growing then there most likely enough nutrients. Also your test kit may not be sensitive enough to pick up very low amounts of N/P

@inland_reef has a similar set up. Check out his build!

Beautiful tank! I love gorgonians too, I was thinking to add a couple of photosynthetic ones on the "plant" side.. Macros are doing OK, they have been trough an "explosive" growth phase and now are slowing quickly down, I opened a thread bc of that. For now I tested ph, Kh, calcium, nitrates and phosphates and the only limiting factor seems to be nitrates/phosphates. I will get the Mg test this week and doublecheck that just to be sure. I also ordered some iron for dosing a bit of that for my red macros because it seems that are losing some "redness".
My idea on this is that because of macros and the phyto I dose, all the N&P gets depleted before can be even measured. I reduced phyto from 10ml to 5ml/day and trying to feed the tank a bit more.

 

[KonradTO]

I would look to increase your stock little by little to handle it. I have a mixed reef with heavy NPS that is connected to a display fuge.

I feed heavily and have explosive macro growth. Nutritients were something I would worry about too when setting up but adding little by little went a long way in making sure everything adjusted with each addition.

I run a 20 gallon display with 7 fish, 2 conches, snails, hermits, porcelain, sexy, and a bunch of filter feeders. 10 gallon display fige with 14 types of macro, blue oyster for filtration, dove snails, and all of my unwanted hitchhikers.

Remember, you want your macro to grow into "your" nutrient needs. Not your nutrients grow into your macro needs because then it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

I wish I could do something like that with a display fuge but my wife forbid to make holes in the glass and now that it's all set up I don't want to empty it for drilling. Wow it seems that you managed to stock quite a lot for 20 gallons! It must be very stable if you can export all that nutrients. Are you testing for nitrates? If yes how much N do you have?
Yes I agree on your last point. My first reason for doing this "dual" setting was to have a refugium directly in my display without need for a sump and being more resilient in case of overfeeding/emergencies.

But I am not very clear how corals can use nutrients if macros will be faster at depleting them and grow when there's a surplus

 

[Dan_P]

Hi all,
I am new to saltwater aquariums and I have been setting up my very first reef tank for a couple of months now.
I have an AIO fluval flex 32g whitout sump. As filtration system I have the original filter from the aquarium and an external filter on top of that, plus some 5-10 cm sand and live+dry rocks.
You can see how is set up my tank: one side corals one side macros.

Now, I am planning to start stocking with corals in a month or so, but the problem is that no matter how much I feed the tank, I can't raise nitrates/phosphates higher than 0. I am under stocked with only one big watchman goby+pistol shrimp, a tiny hermit and a lot of snails and pods.
I am very undecided on how to proceed, if stocking more fish before corals would solve the problem or starting to dose nitrogen (which would make pointless my original idea to use macros to control nutrients) or even leaving it as it is. I would love to put some duncans/torches/zoas for now but I am worried that if I have 0 nitrates they will starve quickly.
Is anyone here with a similar setup? What do you suggest?

I don’t have a similar set but grow macro algae. All the macro organisms in your system need to be managed.

Algae is not self sufficient. It has needs. Plus it needs to pruned or it will take over the aquarium. Algae can become large consumers of nitrate, phosphate, and trace elements. They can grow so much under bright light that nutrients and trace elements can become depleted. Bad news for the coral. Also, algae in a nutrient depleted brightly lit system encourage growth of cyanobacteria and other organisms living off the dying macro algae.

Stocking will be tricky. Snails and some crabs will eat macro algae. That should help with pruning.

Keep in mind algae and coral in some respects have overlapping nutrient demands, like nitrate and phosphate. Some SPS coral are harmed by macro algae.

How you proceed depends on what you want in the system and understanding its needs and then looking for incompatibilities in your stocking choices.

 

[KonradTO]

I don’t have a similar set but grow macro algae. All the macro organisms in your system need to be managed.

Algae is not self sufficient. It has needs. Plus it needs to pruned or it will take over the aquarium. Algae can become large consumers of nitrate, phosphate, and trace elements. They can grow so much under bright light that nutrients and trace elements can become depleted. Bad news for the coral. Also, algae in a nutrient depleted brightly lit system encourage growth of cyanobacteria and other organisms living off the dying macro algae.

Stocking will be tricky. Snails and some crabs will eat macro algae. That should help with pruning.

Keep in mind algae and coral in some respects have overlapping nutrient demands, like nitrate and phosphate. Some SPS coral are harmed by macro algae.

How you proceed depends on what you want in the system and understanding its needs and then looking for incompatibilities in your stocking choices.

Thanks for your reply! This is my first reef tank so I have no precise "aims" toward some corals vs others. In general I like LPS and soft corals more than sps, and I understand that for this very reason I need to keep my nitrates higher than usual.
I really would like to touch as little as possible my tank, at the cost of not being able to "decide" what direction it will take. It would be great if it could turn out in an almost self sustainable small habitat where I only add some micronutrients and food on top of elements contained in water changes.
I am not even sure something like this is possible with 32 gallon tank lol

 

[Eatfrenchfries]

I wish I could do something like that with a display fuge but my wife forbid to make holes in the glass and now that it's all set up I don't want to empty it for drilling. Wow it seems that you managed to stock quite a lot for 20 gallons! It must be very stable if you can export all that nutrients. Are you testing for nitrates? If yes how much N do you have?
Yes I agree on your last point. My first reason for doing this "dual" setting was to have a refugium directly in my display without need for a sump and being more resilient in case of overfeeding/emergencies.

But I am not very clear how corals can use nutrients if macros will be faster at depleting them and grow when there's a surplus

I actually don't have anything drilled. I use a HOB overflow. My nitrates test just under 10ppm but I don't test often(last one was 10/5). Iron dosing helps photosynthetic reactions and will cause your macros to go through a "spurt" enabling them to grow. Iodide can help deal with the redness of macros but with caution.

As for nutrient uptake. Red vs green macros make a difference. Reds are for steady nutrient consumption and don't grow as fast. Greens grow fast so they take up nutrient s faster such as chaeto/ulva. Usually a combination of these will help your tank have the best nutrient uptake without too much competition between them. I primarily have red macros because my nutrient levels are steady and rarely spike. If they do I keep small pockets of ulva that tend to grow and meet my more demanding needs. As for coral and macro competing for elements in your system. It'd only be an issue if you had a lot of calcified algae that makes up a good volume of your overall system. Other than that I don't lose elements fast enough that water changes can't replace (I keep some montipora and acros, but they aren't colony size either)

 

[Eatfrenchfries]

I actually don't have anything drilled. I use a HOB overflow. My nitrates test just under 10ppm but I don't test often(last one was 10/5). Iron dosing helps photosynthetic reactions and will cause your macros to go through a "spurt" enabling them to grow. Iodide can help deal with the redness of macros but with caution.

As for nutrient uptake. Red vs green macros make a difference. Reds are for steady nutrient consumption and don't grow as fast. Greens grow fast so they take up nutrient s faster such as chaeto/ulva. Usually a combination of these will help your tank have the best nutrient uptake without too much competition between them. I primarily have red macros because my nutrient levels are steady and rarely spike. If they do I keep small pockets of ulva that tend to grow and meet my more demanding needs. As for coral and macro competing for elements in your system. It'd only be an issue if you had a lot of calcified algae that makes up a good volume of your overall system. Other than that I don't lose elements fast enough that water changes can't replace (I keep some montipora and acros, but they aren't colony size either

 

[Eatfrenchfries]

It takes time to develop a system like the one you want. You'll get there for sure and it's more than possible in a 32 gallon. Just takes a lot of biodiversity within your tank to fill each niche of the ecosystem you deign to create and fill.

 

[KonradTO]

I actually don't have anything drilled. I use a HOB overflow. My nitrates test just under 10ppm but I don't test often(last one was 10/5). Iron dosing helps photosynthetic reactions and will cause your macros to go through a "spurt" enabling them to grow. Iodide can help deal with the redness of macros but with caution.

As for nutrient uptake. Red vs green macros make a difference. Reds are for steady nutrient consumption and don't grow as fast. Greens grow fast so they take up nutrient s faster such as chaeto/ulva. Usually a combination of these will help your tank have the best nutrient uptake without too much competition between them. I primarily have red macros because my nutrient levels are steady and rarely spike. If they do I keep small pockets of ulva that tend to grow and meet my more demanding needs. As for coral and macro competing for elements in your system. It'd only be an issue if you had a lot of calcified algae that makes up a good volume of your overall system. Other than that I don't lose elements fast enough that water changes can't replace (I keep some montipora and acros, but they aren't colony size either)

Great! Thanks for the detailed explanation!

 

[Subsea]

@KonradTO

How long has your system been set up?

Six months ago, I set up two mixed garden seaweed lagoons to grow ornamental seaweed: 55G & 30G. Both are skimmerless & sumpless using cannister filters as cryptic refugiums. Both were started with diver collected live rock & live sand from 30’ of water 30 miles west of Tampa Bay in the Gulf of Mexico.

I am a Laissez faire reefkeepers that runs simplistic systems that rely on bacteria, algae and cryptic sponges to handle biochemistry.

I feed heavy, dose ammonia & ChaetoGrow. One month ago, a section of Red Gracilaria went sexual before the Green Caulerpa. No worries, it cleared up in a few hours after adding ammonia & trace minerals.

 

[KonradTO]

@KonradTO

How long has your system been set up?

Six months ago, I set up two mixed garden seaweed lagoons to grow ornamental seaweed: 55G & 30G. Both are skimmerless & sumpless using cannister filters as cryptic refugiums. Both were started with diver collected live rock & live sand from 30’ of water 30 miles west of Tampa Bay in the Gulf of Mexico.

I am a Laissez faire reefkeepers that runs simplistic systems that rely on bacteria, algae and cryptic sponges to handle biochemistry.

I feed heavy, dose ammonia & ChaetoGrow. One month ago, a section of Red Gracilaria went sexual before the Green Caulerpa. No worries, it cleared up in a few hours after adding ammonia & trace minerals.

As I mentioned in the thread it is a very new system, about 2 months old. Wow it would be awesome to be able to introduce diversity directly from the sea. Some red macros and some pebbles in my tank are from the mediterranean sea but I am quite far from there atm (more than 12h driving, quite a lot for the EU standard XD).

I love your approach. It is so much better to leave the system develop and evolve on its own pace. The best tank I ever had was a 15g tank with water from the pond near my house. There was an incredible variety of species in there and every day I could find something new in there.

I was actually planning to approach my reef tank in the same way with a lot of LR from different sources but the environmental aspect and the wellbeing of my goby and hermit are now on my focus, I wouldn't want to add some parasites or predators that could kill them.

Why do you feed with ammonia and not directly with nitrogen? for supporting the bacteria in the filter?

 

[Subsea]

Ammonia is the most direct form of nitrogen that I am aware of. I am not really interested in maximizing nitrification bacteria.

Ammonia is directly taken up by macro & coral. No need to maximize bacteria, they will self regulate to the environment.

 

[KonradTO]

What I noticed is that most people have mainly macros or mainly corals in their DTs.. I start to wonder that there might be a reason. Someone mentioned above that macros getting out of control and overgrowing corals could be a problem but, as far as I have experienced in the last 2 months, if I take away bits of caulerpa early from my rockwork before they establish, they dont spread too much.

 

[KonradTO]

Ammonia is the most direct form of nitrogen that I am aware of. I am not really interested in maximizing nitrification bacteria.

Ammonia is directly taken up by macro & coral. No need to maximize bacteria, they will self regulate to the environment.

Do you have fish in your DT?

 

[Tamberav]

Hi all,
I am new to saltwater aquariums and I have been setting up my very first reef tank for a couple of months now.
I have an AIO fluval flex 32g whitout sump. As filtration system I have the original filter from the aquarium and an external filter on top of that, plus some 5-10 cm sand and live+dry rocks.
You can see how is set up my tank: one side corals one side macros.

Now, I am planning to start stocking with corals in a month or so, but the problem is that no matter how much I feed the tank, I can't raise nitrates/phosphates higher than 0. I am under stocked with only one big watchman goby+pistol shrimp, a tiny hermit and a lot of snails and pods.
I am very undecided on how to proceed, if stocking more fish before corals would solve the problem or starting to dose nitrogen (which would make pointless my original idea to use macros to control nutrients) or even leaving it as it is. I would love to put some duncans/torches/zoas for now but I am worried that if I have 0 nitrates they will starve quickly.
Is anyone here with a similar setup? What do you suggest?

When I ran a mixed macro and coral tank I had plenty of fish but had to dose bottled phosphate and nitrate daily. Phosphate mostly. Heavy feeding had little impact. I also dosed a little cheatogro for the more decorative/colorful macros.

I my case I was keeping the macro as I like it and wanted it part of the display. So I treated it much like coral to make sure it’s needs were met.

 

[Subsea]

Do you have fish in your DT?

In the 30G, I have 15 Blue Yellow Tail Damsels. I have
6 different systems.

Consider your 10 cm sand bed as a large consumer of your nitrogen & oxygen. Macro will consume large quantities of nitrogen with N ratios from 30:1 to above 80:1.

 

[KonradTO]

In the 30G, I have 15 Blue Yellow Tail Damsels. I have
6 different systems.

Consider your 10 cm sand bed as a large consumer of your nitrogen & oxygen. Macro will consume large quantities of nitrogen with N ratios from 30:1 to above 80:1.

Wait when you talk about ammonia you do not mean NH3 but rather KNO3 right?

 

[dvgyfresh]

I keep macro in my display (also have a sump for refugium). I think it makes nutrient control so very easy , once the macro gets too big I simply take it out