Mixing Fairy Wrasses?

[FishyReef]

I currently have a male red velvet fairy wrasse, about 3 1/2" snout to tail-tip in size, and would like to add a female red velvet and another fairy wrasse pair (currently considering Scotts, Orange-back, whip-fin, yellow-flank, or pink margin). I've read various opinions on mixing fairy wrasses together and thought I would get some opinions from folks here on compatibility. My tank is a standard 90g w/ a 20g sump (which I plan to increase to a 40g sump and turn the 20 into a fuge for a total of 150g water volume). I have 165# of live rock currently, with an adequate mix of caves/hiding places and open swimming space. Other fish include a chromis, occellaris pair, tail-spot blenny, watchman goby, six-line wrasse (1 1/3" size) that keeps to itself, mimic tang, and black-cap basslet. The male red velvet has been in my tank for 6 months and has not paid much attention to new tank-mates, other than the tang whom he pals around with all day. While everyone pretty much gets along, the basslet occasionally postures at the tang and the basslet and red velvet occasionally chase each other, though I often think of this dynamic as the basslet instigating and then losing when the red velvet chases it into the rocks. I've only seen the aftermath of a nipping incident a handful of times, almost always on the basslet - he is kind of my problem child LOL. The six-line pretty much does its own thing and very rarely interacts with the other fish, though I recognize this dynamic may change as the six-line gets older and larger (my hope is that it won't go after well-established fish that it has gotten along with by the time it gets bigger). Anyhow, what do you think of adding a female red velvet and a second fairy pair? Any of the possible types I listed that would work well, or conversely be a bad idea?

Thanks!

 

[evolved]

A few things at work here.

First, Red Velvets can and often do get quite aggressive towards other wrasses. Mixing them with other fairys can be iffy. Also, adding a female is fine, but you'll need to make sure it's really female and not sub-male, which can be hard to distinguish if you don't know what to look for.

If you're set on adding another pair, you'll want to make that selection carefully. Of those you've listed, do NOT pick Scott's or Whip-fins; these are amongst the MOST aggressive fairys. The others are all about the same when it comes to temperament. You'll want to use an acclimation box with a new pair and closely observe how the existing Red Velvet male takes to them. If it's a constant attack towards them, it won't ever work.

 

[divewsharks]

my red-velvet has been a model citizen; but he was also added next to last in the mix: Laboutei, Lineatus, Rubisquamis, Rhomboids. In my case the Labout's is the dominant wrasse.
I would highly agree on the acclimation box any signs of aggression and you take him back (make sure you pre-arrange this with LFS).

 

[KJoFan]

It would be helpful for those considering multiple wrasses (flashers or fairies or both) to have a compatibility chart and/or reference for level of aggression for various wrasses. Maybe this already exists out there somewhere?

 

[lpskeeper]

It would be helpful for those considering multiple wrasses (flashers or fairies or both) to have a compatibility chart and/or reference for level of aggression for various wrasses. Maybe this already exists out there somewhere?

Yes that's what I've been looking for the last week.

 

[lpskeeper]

My red-velvet has been a model citizen; but he was also added next to last in the mix: Laboutei, Lineatus, Rubisquamis, Rhomboids. In my case the Labout's is the dominant wrasse.
I would highly agree on the acclimation box any signs of aggression and you take him back (make sure you pre-arrange this with LFS)

Do you have a pic of your wrasses
What's your tank size

 

[FishyReef]

A few things at work here.

First, Red Velvets can and often do get quite aggressive towards other wrasses. Mixing them with other fairys can be iffy. Also, adding a female is fine, but you'll need to make sure it's really female and not sub-male, which can be hard to distinguish if you don't know what to look for.

If you're set on adding another pair, you'll want to make that selection carefully. Of those you've listed, do NOT pick Scott's or Whip-fins; these are amongst the MOST aggressive fairys. The others are all about the same when it comes to temperament. You'll want to use an acclimation box with a new pair and closely observe how the existing Red Velvet male takes to them. If it's a constant attack towards them, it won't ever work.

Interesting. So even though the red velvet is already established, in the case of fairy wrasses you shouldn't add a more aggressive wrasse last? Of the others I listed, I'm leaning towards the orange-back or yellow-flanked (or blue-headed given their similarities). Are either of these slightly more aggressive than the red velvet, or will the red velvet be the dominant one and risk killing the new addition? Honestly, I'm more concerned about how the basslet will react to a new wrasse, but am also willing to remove the basslet if it comes to that.

Any tips on identifying females? My LFSs rarely have wrasses in stock so I would most likely order them from Live Aquaria, but in the regular sections of Live Aquaria, they list most of the wrasses as "juvenile/female" or "sub-adult/female" - is it pretty likely that I would get a male instead of a female if I ordered a small or medium sized juvenile?

I agree with everyone else, it would be really helpful to have a chart of wrasse compatability, or at the very least to hear stories of what combos have or haven't worked for others and what stocking order worked or didn't work!

 

[evolved]

Interesting. So even though the red velvet is already established, in the case of fairy wrasses you shouldn't add a more aggressive wrasse last? Of the others I listed, I'm leaning towards the orange-back or yellow-flanked (or blue-headed given their similarities). Are either of these slightly more aggressive than the red velvet, or will the red velvet be the dominant one and risk killing the new addition? Honestly, I'm more concerned about how the basslet will react to a new wrasse, but am also willing to remove the basslet if it comes to that.

Any tips on identifying females? My LFSs rarely have wrasses in stock so I would most likely order them from Live Aquaria, but in the regular sections of Live Aquaria, they list most of the wrasses as "juvenile/female" or "sub-adult/female" - is it pretty likely that I would get a male instead of a female if I ordered a small or medium sized juvenile?

I agree with everyone else, it would be really helpful to have a chart of wrasse compatability, or at the very least to hear stories of what combos have or haven't worked for others and what stocking order worked or didn't work!

Sure, you should add the more aggressive fairys last, when you plan to have multiple fairys which are compatible. Problem here is, not all fairys are always compatible. Enter the Red Velvet...

First, Cirrhilabrus lyukyuensis (yellow-sided) is a simply a moniker for Cirrhilabrus cyanopleura (blue-sided); they are the same species. To clarify on your common names; yellow flanked is typically reserved as a common name for Cirrhilabrus luteovittatus. Blue-headed is a Thalassoma bifasciatum; certainly one you don't want in a reef. Blue-sided is what you're talking about.

Now, neither the orange back or the blue-sided is more aggressive than the red velvet; the only Cirrhilabrus species which are more aggressive you most certainly don't want to even try to mix with a red velvet. So yes, adding either the orange back or blue-sided is a risk, but you won't know until you try. However, this is the reason myself and others are stressing the acclimation box; this way you can try without murdering the new guys.

As for sex on the Red Velvet, I'll borrow a Dr. Tanaka photo for that:

Ordering a "female" from LA might well be a crap shoot; I wouldn't hold my breath on actually getting a female. If it's a small enough juvi, it would stay female, but it'd need to be a 2-2.5" juvi to be certain of this.

As for a "compatibility chart, it's not that simple. While there are trends with certain species and combos (and I've put something of this effect together before), it's always a YMMV situation as other factors influence the situation, such as tank conditions, tank size, other tankmates, feeding frequency/amount, and most importantly and most variable: the attitude/personality of any given specimen. Even with the more "peaceful" species of fairys, you could always get "that one male" which is a complete terror.

 

[KJoFan]

As for a "compatibility chart, it's not that simple. While there are trends with certain species and combos (and I've put something of this effect together before), it's always a YMMV situation as other factors influence the situation, such as tank conditions, tank size, other tankmates, feeding frequency/amount, and most importantly and most variable: the attitude/personality of any given specimen. Even with the more "peaceful" species of fairys, you could always get "that one male" which is a complete terror.

Understandable. How about some good "go to" sources you could point wrasse lovers to for information they can research themselves? We all appreciate your expertise and input. Keep it up!

 

[FishyReef]

Sure, you should add the more aggressive fairys last, when you plan to have multiple fairys which are compatible. Problem here is, not all fairys are always compatible. Enter the Red Velvet...

First, Cirrhilabrus lyukyuensis (yellow-sided) is a simply a moniker for Cirrhilabrus cyanopleura (blue-sided); they are the same species. To clarify on your common names; yellow flanked is typically reserved as a common name for Cirrhilabrus luteovittatus. Blue-headed is a Thalassoma bifasciatum; certainly one you don't want in a reef. Blue-sided is what you're talking about.

Now, neither the orange back or the blue-sided is more aggressive than the red velvet; the only Cirrhilabrus species which are more aggressive you most certainly don't want to even try to mix with a red velvet. So yes, adding either the orange back or blue-sided is a risk, but you won't know until you try. However, this is the reason myself and others are stressing the acclimation box; this way you can try without murdering the new guys.

Thanks for this explanation on the Scott's and Whip-fin - makes total sense and they are now off my list! What do you think about the Cirrhilabrus solorensis? Yes, the others I am considering are Cirrhilabrus aurantidorsalis, Cirrhilabrus lyukyuensis, and/or Cirrhilabrus cyanopleura. I was using the names given on Live Aquaria and apologize for the confusion - it is hard when there are so many similar common names for different species! The acclimation box is a great idea and I will look into that - I wonder if there are any that are a couple of feet in length that I could secure to the front glass to give the fish a place to swim for a few days while the others get comfortable with their presence?

 

[Mike&Terry]

Our acclimation box was custom made by Elite Aquatics and the dimensions are 12"Lx6"Dx8"H. We keep a number of wrasses (fairy, flasher and leopard) in our system and have found the box to be a good size for them and doesn't take up too much space inside of the tank.

 

[3Twinklets]

A good article:
http://,3reef.com/forums/tropical-fish/all-about-reef-safe-wrasses-122261,html

With all that said. I almost have one of everything!!
I believe that if the tank is large enough and there are plenty of rocks and caves and the fish are not overly hungry it just may work for you!

I believe you said that your tank is 90 gallons and do you have lots of rock or a few pieces? If wrasse land is going to be your plan, than you want it heavy on the rocks.
I have a Hawaiian Flame and a Red Velvet and they get along just fine.
I always try to buy a large male when I add.

 

[evolved]

Understandable. How about some good "go to" sources you could point wrasse lovers to for information they can research themselves? We all appreciate your expertise and input. Keep it up!

Wendy (3Twinklets) has just happened to provide you a good one below

Thanks for this explanation on the Scott's and Whip-fin - makes total sense and they are now off my list! What do you think about the Cirrhilabrus solorensis? Yes, the others I am considering are Cirrhilabrus aurantidorsalis, Cirrhilabrus lyukyuensis, and/or Cirrhilabrus cyanopleura. I was using the names given on Live Aquaria and apologize for the confusion - it is hard when there are so many similar common names for different species! The acclimation box is a great idea and I will look into that - I wonder if there are any that are a couple of feet in length that I could secure to the front glass to give the fish a place to swim for a few days while the others get comfortable with their presence?

No worries on the common names; I was just trying to provide some clarity. And now you see the problem with common names (and I agree with you); latin names are much more useful. The link Mike & Terry provided is really all you need; also look into the "Acclimate".
As for C. solorensis, that's another species which can get "interesting" with other fairys, but alongside a Red Velvet it may work nicely.

Our acclimation box was custom made by Elite Aquatics and the dimensions are 12"Lx6"Dx8"H. We keep a number of wrasses (fairy, flasher and leopard) in our system and have found the box to be a good size for them and doesn't take up too much space inside of the tank.

A good article:
http://,3reef.com/forums/tropical-fish/all-about-reef-safe-wrasses-122261,html

With all that said. I almost have one of everything!!
I believe that if the tank is large enough and there are plenty of rocks and caves and the fish are not overly hungry it just may work for you!

I believe you said that your tank is 90 gallons and do you have lots of rock or a few pieces? If wrasse land is going to be your plan, than you want it heavy on the rocks.
I have a Hawaiian Flame and a Red Velvet and they get along just fine.
I always try to buy a large male when I add.

Thanks Wendy.
And I do agree with you mostly. The larger your tank and the more hiding places you have, the more things you can get away with as far as mixing species.
To note, flames and red velvets together are a 50/50 coin toss if it'll work or not.

 

[lpskeeper]

What about this line up

Flame wrasse
8 line wrasse
Lineatus wrasse

Tank is a 30 by 30 by 30 cube about 107 gallons

 

[FishyReef]

As for C. solorensis, that's another species which can get "interesting" with other fairys, but alongside a Red Velvet it may work nicely.

So, with this and the rest of the discussion in mind, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a female red velvet, moderately sized male solorensis, and larger male lyukyuensis - all from Divers Den (I trust the female is in fact female in this case). I had hoped that a C. aurantidorsalis would be available but it hasn't been for several days now on any site and I didn't want to lose the chance to get the female from DD. The fact that the others were still available on DD was just an added bonus! I will look to get a few acclimation containers from my LFS, and am also hoping that adding these simultaneously will spread out aggression. My real hope is that the male red velvet will be distracted by the presence of the female, and the basslet's aggression will be dampened by the presence of multiple fish. I am also hoping that because the solorensis is the smallest of the males and the lyukuensis is the largest, that they will figure things out aggression-wise without too much trouble. I will be watching territorial issues carefully and can add a few more rocks if needed (though think there are still plenty of caves for them each to stake out). I'll let everyone know how it goes!

 

[evolved]

What about this line up

Flame wrasse
8 line wrasse
Lineatus wrasse

Tank is a 30 by 30 by 30 cube about 107 gallons

The problem here isn't the combo (assuming when you say Eightline your referring to the Eightline Flasher - Paracheilinus octotaenia), but rather the tank dimensions. Sure, you have enough volume to handle the bioload, but a 2.5 foot tank doesn't allow for much swimming room. Personally, I wouldn't add any of those three in such little swimming room, I'm sorry to say.

So, with this and the rest of the discussion in mind, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a female red velvet, moderately sized male solorensis, and larger male lyukyuensis - all from Divers Den (I trust the female is in fact female in this case). I had hoped that a C. aurantidorsalis would be available but it hasn't been for several days now on any site and I didn't want to lose the chance to get the female from DD. The fact that the others were still available on DD was just an added bonus! I will look to get a few acclimation containers from my LFS, and am also hoping that adding these simultaneously will spread out aggression. My real hope is that the male red velvet will be distracted by the presence of the female, and the basslet's aggression will be dampened by the presence of multiple fish. I am also hoping that because the solorensis is the smallest of the males and the lyukuensis is the largest, that they will figure things out aggression-wise without too much trouble. I will be watching territorial issues carefully and can add a few more rocks if needed (though think there are still plenty of caves for them each to stake out). I'll let everyone know how it goes!

Sounds like a solid plan, I would still urge an acclimation box however. They really can do amazing things in the long run.
Best of luck with this; let us know how it goes.

 

[KJoFan]

Thanks for the link, very useful information. Can you give some suggestions on specific wrasses that would be good to add to my system, as well as suitable numbers. Here's the current lineup in order that they were added:

six-line wrasse (came from an old system, and I'm well aware of the bullying tendancies, he's not too bad, but makes his presence known to new additions)
foxface rabbitfish
Lubbock's Fairy
M. bipartitus male
Scopas tang
mimic tang (just a baby, 2" max)

Everyone gets along fine at this point, there have been no new additions for awhile, the baby mimic being the last addition so no threat there. System is 120g with moderate amounts of rock.

So I would appreciate you shooting me some suggestions, without necessarily an emphasis on price at this point.

Thanks again evolved for your input.

 

[FishyReef]

It's so interesting to me how much attention this topic has garnered and how a lot of people have similar questions about what can be mixed, etc. I really appreciate your input and expertise Evolved! I know it is impossible to put together a chart of compatability due to all of the other factors (tank size, other fish, etc) - but I wonder if it would be possible to put together a list of fairy wrasse species in order from peaceful to most aggressive? That might at least help us know which species can't play at all with others (e.g., Scott's, Whip-fin), which are aggressive but might do okay with other similarly aggressive species (e.g., red velvet and c. solorensis), and which are peaceful and will get along fairly well with other peaceful fairies. Just a thought!

 

[evolved]

Thanks for the link, very useful information. Can you give some suggestions on specific wrasses that would be good to add to my system, as well as suitable numbers. Here's the current lineup in order that they were added:

six-line wrasse (came from an old system, and I'm well aware of the bullying tendancies, he's not too bad, but makes his presence known to new additions)
foxface rabbitfish
Lubbock's Fairy
M. bipartitus male
Scopas tang
mimic tang (just a baby, 2" max)

Everyone gets along fine at this point, there have been no new additions for awhile, the baby mimic being the last addition so no threat there. System is 120g with moderate amounts of rock.

So I would appreciate you shooting me some suggestions, without necessarily an emphasis on price at this point.

Thanks again evolved for your input.

With that sixline present, I can't recommend much with any confidence. If you're willing to remove that fish, the door opens a lot.
So assuming the sixline disappears:
Really any Flasher (Paracheilinus) would be suitable.
Any of the more peaceful Fairys (Cirrhilabrus) would also be fine.
Beyond that, specific choices really come down to your budget and what visually appeals to you.

It's so interesting to me how much attention this topic has garnered and how a lot of people have similar questions about what can be mixed, etc. I really appreciate your input and expertise Evolved! I know it is impossible to put together a chart of compatability due to all of the other factors (tank size, other fish, etc) - but I wonder if it would be possible to put together a list of fairy wrasse species in order from peaceful to most aggressive? That might at least help us know which species can't play at all with others (e.g., Scott's, Whip-fin), which are aggressive but might do okay with other similarly aggressive species (e.g., red velvet and c. solorensis), and which are peaceful and will get along fairly well with other peaceful fairies. Just a thought!

Again, I've already done this. It's not in order of aggression, but alphabetically by latin name. At this time, it doesn't include ALL species, but all the ones you can find without much trouble here in the states.
That link Wendy provided... All About Reef Safe Wrasses - 3reef Forums (/shameless plug)

 

[divewsharks]

My red-velvet has been a model citizen; but he was also added next to last in the mix: Laboutei, Lineatus, Rubisquamis, Rhomboids. In my case the Labout's is the dominant wrasse.
I would highly agree on the acclimation box any signs of aggression and you take him back (make sure you pre-arrange this with LFS)

Do you have a pic of your wrasses
What's your tank size

Sorry, just saw this.
I don't have any recent pics. My tank is a Tech90. The way the aquascaping is done, I have have a good amount of swimming room but also alot of overhangs, nooks/crannies and such for fish to hide as I knew when i re-setup of the tank it was to house wrasses.