Murphy's law.... Disease the morning i leave for vacacion!

david p. · Jul 8, 2017

Hi,

July 4th:
- Notice some change on the skin of my Kole tang. Was hard to see, my wife tough i was crazy. it was kinda translucent.

July 5th:
- Was leaving at 6am for 2 day trip. Stop by the tank and see my Kole tang covered with white dots. His mouth seems 'fat', big lips.
- Manage to catch him within 10min (i was sooo lucky). I did a 5 min fresh water dip, than in QT just before leaving with Ich-X. Decided Ich-X because it treats ich and velvet... freshwater would have help (gain time) for fluke, ich and velvet.

I left for 2 days without knowing how my tank was doing or my Kole in QT.... it sucks but family vacacions.

i don't have pic, because everything happened pretty fast and i had to leave on a hurry... we were already late from me catching, dipping and starting QT.

Potential disease:
- Ich
- Velvet
- Brook
- Fluke

Back on the 7th (late night):
- Main tank, fish are ok. I can see my tail spot blenny rub on sand from time to time. No other signs in main display.
- Kole tang (in QT), all white spots are gone. The skin on his face seems 'cracked' a few white things (not dots) on fins. Skin seems infected on a small area. One of his eye is white and blurry.
- Did another freshwater dip, transfer in new QT tank with clean material. and another ich-X treatment.
- Kole seems to behave the same. Maybe a little heavy breathing, but i have seen worst. Only his lips still bigger than usual.

July-8th:
- no more external sign on the Kole tang other than his fat lips.

At that point i ruled out Brook and Velvet, they seem to be fast killer and so far it does not seems to affect other fish.

My question are:
1. i lean toward ich, but with the behavior of the other fish, could it be fluke ? the white spot on tang a side effect of fluke, with the stress from fluke ich appeared ?

2. Do i need to do a full QT of my tang, meaning 4-6weeks, or i can put it back in my DT i a few days since the main tank is contaminated ? i'll have to live with watever disease is in the tank from now on

3. Other ideas for treating my tang or my tank ? What would you do ?

Also note, that i QT every fish before getting in the DT.

thanks, any advice and comments are welcome!

david

aykwm · Jul 8, 2017

I wouldnt rule out velvet just yet, if you put the fish in qt with medication then this might curr velvet just in time before it kills it, also if you have hardy fish they might survive initial velvet wipeout. Although it might not be velvet and possibly ich or flukes or bacterial infection. Do you have photos of the fish showing any symptoms? Cloudy eyes might be flukes or bacterial infection. Ich will not infect fish because its stressed, its always there but will overwhelm the fish due to stress and lowered slime coat.

The photo will help judge it better, also perform FW to confirm or rule out flukes.

dh350twin · Jul 8, 2017

+1 on photos

ngoodermuth · Jul 8, 2017

+2 on photos. It actually sounds a little bit bacterial to me...with the swollen mouth and marks/discoloration. But, a picture would really help.

If it is bacterial, it's very likely it is secondary to a parasite as well. In the freshwater dip, did you see anything come off the fish? Flukes look like white, flat, little ovals.

david p. · Jul 8, 2017

here are some pics, will try to get a side view of the fish, but there's nothing realy visible.

You can see his lips and also his eye (the one on the left on the first pic).

ngoodermuth · Jul 8, 2017

If it's not flukes, ich is very likely. The only treatment is to remove all fish and treat, while leaving your display fallow for 76 days. I am just finishing up the same...it sucks, but it's better than having to constantly worry about an outbreak and randomly losing fish.

ngoodermuth · Jul 8, 2017

From the photos it looks more like an injury or mild infection. What did the spots look like when they were there? This is ich, for comparison:

david p. · Jul 8, 2017

i could not take a picture of the fish covered in white, was in a hurry when i had to leave.
i know what is ich, but it can be mistaken with other disease.
The fish was literaly covered with withe spots, like 1000x more than the pic above. all over his body. it happened overnight, the previous evening i noticed a change in the appearance of the skin of the tang, the morning it was covered in withe spots.
when i came back on the 7th and saw the other fish were ok and tang improved, it kinda removed Brook and maybe Velvet. that why i think ich, but it was fast and also the lips is not a symptom i know off..

aykwm · Jul 8, 2017

1000s of white spots sounds like velvet, if its brook it will look more like the skin is peeling of or excess slime coat.
It was a good judgement to remove it immediatly to hospital tank, that probably saved its life. I would still check for flukes just in case, and also probably dose kanaplex as antibiotic treatment against infections if needed.
Best of luck.

david p. · Jul 8, 2017

ok so if the contenders are: Ich, Velvet and Flukes.

My plan for the Kole tang is daily 5min freshwater dip.
I will treat 2 more time with Ich-X as per 'recommandation'.
I will do TTM on my QT, even if DT is still 'contaminated'. I just want to get my tang back to full health and hope he can stay healthy once intruduced back to DT. I don't plan to go fallow for now, all my other fish seems normal and pretty healty.

as for antibiotic, i have Furan-2.
I also have Metro + and prazipro, but not sure they are appropriate.

aykwm · Jul 8, 2017

I advise you to search google images for marine velvet and see if you can compare it with what you had. Velvet will look like ich but its smaller and much more spots cover the fish, it will also have a goldish tint to it.

If its velvet you can't manage it as the case with ich, its only a partial immunity that will last around 6 months probably less.
I dont believe Ich-X will be sufficient for curing the disease as active ingredients are formalin and malachite green, will kill some of the parasites but most likely not all. Also typical TTM will not work on velvet, TTM daily instead of 72 hours might work but velvet can reproduce on fish, in which case it will be useless too.

Best solution is to use a known method that works like copper or CP an running fallow or you will risk another breakout and possible wipe out.

For now just watch the other fish in DT for signs of velvet like scratching, swimming through the flow/power head, sensitivity to light, white/goldish spots, etc. Also FW dip will determine if fluke is involved, which can be lethal, but the good thing is prazipro is somehow reef safe and might effect worms in tank like bristle, feather dusters, etc. but relatively safe on corals and other inverts. If fluke is found, two rounds of prazi 5-7 days apart will be sufficient to eliminate it.

Best of luck

dh350twin · Jul 8, 2017

david p. said:
ok so if the contenders are: Ich, Velvet and Flukes.

My plan for the Kole tang is daily 5min freshwater dip.
I will treat 2 more time with Ich-X as per 'recommandation'.
I will do TTM on my QT, even if DT is still 'contaminated'. I just want to get my tang back to full health and hope he can stay healthy once intruduced back to DT. I don't plan to go fallow for now, all my other fish seems normal and pretty healty.

as for antibiotic, i have Furan-2.
I also have Metro + and prazipro, but not sure they are appropriate.

Also try kanaplex

david p. · Jul 8, 2017

aykwm said:
I advise you to search google images for marine velvet and see if you can compare it with what you had. Velvet will look like ich but its smaller and much more spots cover the fish, it will also have a goldish tint to it.

If its velvet you can't manage it as the case with ich, its only a partial immunity that will last around 6 months probably less.
I dont believe Ich-X will be sufficient for curing the disease as active ingredients are formalin and malachite green, will kill some of the parasites but most likely not all. Also typical TTM will not work on velvet, TTM daily instead of 72 hours might work but velvet can reproduce on fish, in which case it will be useless too.

Best solution is to use a known method that works like copper or CP an running fallow or you will risk another breakout and possible wipe out.

For now just watch the other fish in DT for signs of velvet like scratching, swimming through the flow/power head, sensitivity to light, white/goldish spots, etc. Also FW dip will determine if fluke is involved, which can be lethal, but the good thing is prazipro is somehow reef safe and might effect worms in tank like bristle, feather dusters, etc. but relatively safe on corals and other inverts. If fluke is found, two rounds of prazi 5-7 days apart will be sufficient to eliminate it.

Best of luck

From picture, it could be either ich or velvet, hard to tell. But if Velvet, it seems much more virulent than ich, i would expect other fish to display some sort of symptoms.
Ich-X and TTM is to rule out ich. I doubt it will help for Velvet, it might delay a bit.

Running fallow for now is out of question, it means tearing my DT appart, all rocks are glued togeter, and their is no way my fish will glady be cought

i was lucky to catch the tang that easily.
will look for other treatment (kanaplex)
thanks for your input!

aykwm · Jul 8, 2017

Then I dont recommend treating with medication, it will just be stressful for the fish and once you put it back in DT it will be infected again (assuming ich/velvet is in question), since the spot disappeared, then the fish immunity is dealing with it. I think for now just run antibiotics in case of bacterial infections and check for flukes.

LuckyPhil · Jul 8, 2017

If you cannot run the tank fallow then there is no point treating or QTing your fish. It is already in your DT and all affected even though symptoms migh not appear.
If you treat your Kole and reintroduce it back to the DT you start the cycle all over again.
Your only hope is to hope it is ich and run an ich management system (very debated) there are threads on this.

david p. · Jul 8, 2017

LuckyPhil said:
If you cannot run the tank fallow then there is no point treating or QTing your fish. It is already in your DT and all affected even though symptoms migh not appear.
If you treat your Kole and reintroduce it back to the DT you start the cycle all over again.
Your only hope is to hope it is ich and run an ich management system (very debated) there are threads on this.

i have to disagree on the QT.
Removing a heavily affected fish will reduce the impact of the disease in the system by removing the primary vector of the disease. yes it will be present, but the infection will be much less agressive than if i keep a sick fish. This can allow healthy fish to deal by themselves.

If Velvet, i will see in a few day, i'll then take the appropriate decision. Will wait a few hours day.. until i see other symptoms. For now (fingers cross) only the kole tang has show symptoms.

Humblefish · Jul 8, 2017

david p. said:
The fish was literaly covered with withe spots, like 1000x more than the pic above. all over his body. it happened overnight, the previous evening i noticed a change in the appearance of the skin of the tang, the morning it was covered in withe spots.
when i came back on the 7th and saw the other fish were ok and tang improved, it kinda removed Brook and maybe Velvet. that why i think ich, but it was fast and also the lips is not a symptom i know off..

^^ This sounds like velvet to me, but the fish's immune system is fighting it off. Unfortunately, even though the immune system may win the first battles of war, the pathogen usually (but not always) gains the upper hand eventually and wears the immune system out. Sometimes with an assist from a secondary bacterial infection.

david p. · Jul 9, 2017

Humblefish said:
^^ This sounds like velvet to me, but the fish's immune system is fighting it off. Unfortunately, even though the immune system may win the first battles of war, the pathogen usually (but not always) gains the upper hand eventually and wears the immune system out. Sometimes with an assist from a secondary bacterial infection.

do you know how long it can take ?
i saw the first signs on the 4th and 5th of July. The only fish that i see doing weid stuff is the tail spot blenny who is rubbing on sand and rocks once in a while.

i though Velvet was more agressive and that it was a tank killer. all stories i read are within 24h to 48h most fishes are dead.

Humblefish · Jul 9, 2017

david p. said:
do you know how long it can take ?
i saw the first signs on the 4th and 5th of July. The only fish that i see doing weid stuff is the tail spot blenny who is rubbing on sand and rocks once in a while.

i though Velvet was more agressive and that it was a tank killer. all stories i read are within 24h to 48h most fishes are dead.

Typically, it will wipe out most of your fish population within a week - but this can vary dependent upon hardiness of the fish species, the thickness of their slime coat, overall health of their immune system, etc. There is often a survivor (or two) who outlasts the ordeal, and it's no coincidence that these tend to be clownfish or a mandarin - hardy species with a thick mucous coat for protection.

If you can, add a UV to zap some of the dinospores in the water. This may keep their numbers low enough to save your fish until you get back from vacation.