My acros are acting like they are starved, but....

[Sallstrom]

Have you tried meassure PO4 in your newly mixed saltwater?

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

Just for information, here are my params, which look okay to my untrained eye but somebody might spot something untoward.
Lighting 2 x Hydra 26 running Ai signature Eddie Putra with whites reduced by 30% on acclimation
Salinity 1.025 and constant
Alk 8.3 getting dosed throughout the lighting period and staying constant
calcium 450
Magnesium 1400
Phisphate 0.2 - 0.25
Nitrate 25
Dosing 10ml of Microbacter 7 daily.
Started to dose 4ml of Red Sea A and B dialy to see if this improves things.

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

Have you tried meassure PO4 in your newly mixed saltwater?

I haven't but a water change is due so will test it. I'm using Red Sea blue bucket so hoping that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

Left out flow.
Running an MP40 on Reefcrest at 50% and a TMC pump, probably the equivalent of a MP10, running random mode.

 

[Lasse]

I've got 2 cleaner shrimp, a few trochus and a couple of hermits all doing okay.

OK - it will rule out my concerns about copper - low copper concentrations is excellent in order to keep algae out - but it will hit shrimps, hermits and snails too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

I haven't but a water change is due so will test it. I'm using Red Sea blue bucket so hoping that shouldn't be an issue.

Okey. That's a good start. Test NO3 and KH also. Good to know.

If the results are zero, or close to zero, you might want a large water change to start with. Then figure out a way to control the nutrients.

Getting back to the burnt tips. I think the Red sea blue bucket is a bit higher in KH? Long ago in Sweden when running very low nutrient tanks, I know people who got burnt tips on Acropora when they changed water and the new water had high KH(which some salt do). But if you are high in nutrients, that would probably not matter..

Sorry for long post. Lots of coffee at work today..

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

OK - it will rule out my concerns about copper - low copper concentrations is excellent in order to keep algae out - but it will hit shrimps, hermits and snails too

Sincerely Lasse

That's interesting about copper.
About 6 months ago I changed where I source my water from. I used to buy it from my LFS but in the UK a company started up called Spotless water and they sell guaranteed 0 TDS water, mainly for the window cleaning trade but also for aquariums too. And it is incredibly cheap.
These centres are all over the UK and I have got one pretty local to me. I have seen people do ICP tests on the water (not my specific Spotless water centre) and it has come back perfect.
I might go back to my LFS water, just in case.

 

[Lasse]

I think the Red sea blue bucket is a bit higher in KH?

Blue bucket is nearly the same (if not the same) as you use. It is the PRO that have KH above 11 dKH.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jda]

They could be starving. The only thing that truly "feeds" a coral is the light that has the zoox create sugars for the coral to use as energy. How is both your quality and quantity of light. I am not going down this rabbithole on this thread, but the idea of them capturing food for energy is likely not happening.

If you get some color tinge on Salifert, then you have P present. If you are in the camp that believes hat N and P are food, then you are good, but it does not really matter. Really low N and P are growth limiting, not deadly. They do not give energy like a "food." They are building blocks of life while new tissue cannot be created, they do not cause death from lack of energy like lack of sugar can.

I agree that if you are going to worry about P, then get a Hannah Ultra Low Phosphorous.

It is also true that higher N and P can really harm some acropora, but not nearly all. Some might not care and keep on chugging along, whereas some just have tissue necrosis and die. Most people just choose to keep on chugging along and let the few objectors just die, so if this is just messing with one coral, then make a choice. I have about a dozen acropora species that would start to die back with N over 5 and P over .03, but there are MANY other types that do not care at all and can be 10x these levels. As such, I keep very near to NSW levels so that I can keep anything that I want... not necessary for a lot of acropora, but very necessary for some.

Lastly, if your tank is pretty new, then you just might have to wait. One of the best things that you can do it to get some real diversity if you started with dead/dry rock and sterlie sand (or barebottom). Bacteria in a bottle is not enough. IPSF has a good variety of pods (all kinds), worms, stars, sponges, etc. that really make a tank strong and stable.

 

[jda]

Not all SPS corals do well in higher nutrients. I saw the same reaction just a month ago when the PO4 got up to 0,24ppm in an experiment tank with different Acroporas.
I lowered the phosphate and the corals seems to heal well at the moment.

Please read this twice. I find it to be one of the real misunderstood parts of reef keeping. If my N were 25, I would lose probably 25-50% of my acropora including my Purple Monster, Pink Panther, most spaths, some milleporta, soli, most of my echinata and a bunch of other smoothies. My tenuis, fox flames, tables, hyacs, valida and many of the other current trendy corals could not care at all. When you see success stories with people running higher building block SPS tanks, then you really have to look at their tank and see what they are NOT keeping. There are a lot of corals that do not care at all about higher levels of N and P, but there are many that do... so if the coral in question is one of the more sensitive ones, then it might be best to just let it go if the rest are doing fine and you have no issues with the other stuff.

Like everything important in life, the fine details matter and most people cannot see them.

This is right up there this other misunderstoods like:

• phosphate binds to aragonite and there is more in your tank that what is in the water column
• even with VERY low N and P, you can still get algae if you do not have some consumers (urchins or snails)
• bacteria in a bottle is not biodiversity
• higher levels of N and P can growth limit diatoms, dinos, cyano and algae, so don't think that because you don't have any of these things that they are not poisoned to where they cannot thrive

 

[Lasse]

The only thing that truly "feeds" a coral is the light that has the zoox create sugars for the coral to use as energy

That´s true - but what does both the zoox and coral animal use this carbohydrates to - why does they need energy?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jda]

Same as nearly everything else... first, to just live and maintain, then second to hopefully grow and thrive, then third to hopefully reproduce. You only need "new" N and P to do the last two things*, which are VERY important, but not necessary to stay alive... which is why N and P are growth-limiting at super low numbers, but also not deadly on their own. I think that people would be more successful reefers if they could separate the function and purpose of energy from building blocks in their minds... most people think that N and P are a form of energy which misleads some of them down the wrong path.

* I am assuming that Veron is correct and that most corals can recycle building blocks from dead tissue to repair existing ones... that once they have building blocks, they mostly keep them.

 

[Lasse]

That´s not true. Just only drink water with so much sugar you need for a couple of months and see whats happen. Try to grow plants in sand with only pure water (without P and N) and lot of sunlights. The zoox will die without new P and N - so will the animal too - they will starve to death. Most animals can convert proteins and fat to energy rich carbohydrates and as an example - for fish - carbohydrates is not the primary energy source - it is fat

The maintain process need new N and P - the old will be discharged.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Rick.45cal]

Having high levels of nitrate and almost no phosphates causes permanent damage to corals in my experience. Keeping low levels of both or high levels of both are all VERY different scenarios from having lots of nitrates and almost no (or 0) phosphates. GARF bonsai is one of those corals that’s very sensitive to this condition. I agree with Lasse’s assessment.

 

[jda]

I understand that N and P are discharged in humans and most plants. If we are going to use other animals and false equivalency, then we should at least use a host situation where the host can recycle the N and P for the symbionts. I guess that the human example is the machine recycling the humans in the battery farm in The Matrix. Again, choosing to believe the PHD on this one...

Ocean is 1or 2 ppb of P and .01 N, which nearly nobody in captivity gets to...the Zeo people are even lower, so measuring residuals gets you nowhere, but I guess that people don't really know how to judge throughput.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

OP can you send a pic of your old light schedule and your new one?

 

[drawman]

IMO - you are in a crossroad just now. Everyone (but not me - at least not totally) is convinced of some lack of trace compounds (or lack of nutrients others than N and P (NO3 and PO4) @Sallstrom (who is a wise guy sometimes -during normal situations - we work together - i know him well) point out too high PO4. IMO - it could be this way and a serie of WC can change the situation for you. However - if you follow that road - watch your corals closely and looks if they get better. If not any signs of better health during a week - you should maybe run back to the crossroad - sell your soul to the devil (me) and dose PO4. . it is a long shot - maybe it is wiser to test WC first if there is a deficiency of any other type of compounds.

Sincerely Lasse

If the OP is worried about depleting PO4 with water changes AND wants to get the benefit of trace elements from fresh saltwater a good move would be to dose the new saltwater with PO4.

I understand that N and P are discharged in humans and most plants. If we are going to use other animals and false equivalency, then we should at least use a host situation where the host can recycle the N and P for the symbionts. I guess that the human example is the machine recycling the humans in the battery farm in The Matrix. Again, choosing to believe the PHD on this one...

Ocean is 1or 2 ppb of P and .01 N, which nearly nobody in captivity gets to...the Zeo people are even lower, so measuring residuals gets you nowhere, but I guess that people don't really know how to judge throughput.

Without taking a side here I'm curious did Veron do this kind of research? I thought he was involved more in taxonomy. Certainly he can also make an assumption I'm just curious.

 

[Lasse]

host situation where the host can recycle the N and P for the symbionts.

And i would love to see that paper that says that the host take N and P from its on flesh and give it to symbionts. If that happen - the host will be smaller and smaller and at last disappear and you have a free dinoflagellate.

I think instead that they talk about a situation there the coral animals eat organic matter like plankton from the sea and after that maybe can transfer some N and P into the symbionts. So please give a link to the paper you use as a source.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

OP can you send a pic of your old light schedule and your new one?

Here is my new one.
The old one was maxed out V and UV, RB 120, B 100, R 6, G 6, W30.

Eddie Putra - AquaIllumination

www.aquaillumination.com

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Here is my new one.
The old one was maxed out V and UV, RB 120, B 100, R 6, G 6, W30.

Eddie Putra - AquaIllumination

www.aquaillumination.com

I can’t get access to the actual values on eddies for some reason. What do your whites max out at now?