my new tank cycling stall?

[sawyer010]

hello, everyone
i am new to saltwater tank, and i am doing cycling for my First tank, it has been 17days, i have added ammonia and dr tim's one and only when i set up my tank at frist day. the ammonia has rised up to 5ppm and i did water change, it dropped off about 2ppm, then nitrite was raising up until to 5ppm. and i have Monitored ammonia and nitrite daily, both of them never dropp off. just stay 2ppm and 5ppm.and nitrate is 40ppm as well, so i think my tank has been stalled. so i did 70% water change today, and took test. the ammonia is 1 ppm, nitrite is still 5ppm. and nitrate is 20ppm. so what should i do now?just leave it own or add more bacteria?thanks

 

[dbl]

The most important element in cycling your tank is patience. Yes it's exciting and you want to get fish in there, but getting things established properly on the front end will pay great dividends in the end.

I realize the information below is a little long, but please take the time to read through it as it does a pretty good job explaining the cycling process.

This is excerpt of the supreme guide thread which is another good read.

image via @rusticgirls

In a freshwater aquarium you can add some flake food, wait a couple weeks, and then you can add fish. In the ocean there is much more involved than mechanical filtration. In fact, 70% of your aquariums filtration relies on the maturity of the live rock. A combination of bacteria, algae, and various invertebrates compose the “live” part of the rock. It takes quite a while to establish an ecosystem, even on a microscopic level. Without a proper understanding of the Marine Cycle, you will be in for a long term battle with parameters and algae. There are six main stages to a properly cycled tank. Follow this guide and you cannot mess up. You will need your basic test kit to test the progress.

Stage 1: Ammonia Cycle

Ammonia is the first thing that forms when something rots. It is a waste product in nearly all creatures as well. Instead of using a fish to start the cycle just use some food. Anything that is all natural and uncooked works just fine. Table shrimp that is uncooked works great. Drop it on the sand so it is in view. The shrimp should begin to rot within a couple hours or more. Let this shrimp rot until it is completely gone. If you are curious what your ammonia levels are, go ahead and take some tests. Keep track of the results as the shrimp rots. The smaller the food gets the more ammonia should be present in your water column and pretty soon should be off the charts. This will stay high for a while, but then start to drop. As soon as the ammonia starts to drop you will see a rise in Nitrite, you are now on the next stage.

Stage 2: Nitrite Cycle

Ammonia when broken down by bacteria becomes Nitrite, which is still a toxin. As your Nitrites rise your Ammonia will drop, drop, and keep dropping as long as you haven’t added any animals. Keep up with testing to observe your progress. Eventually your Ammonia will be very low and your nitrites will peak out until it starts feeding a different type of bacteria that turns it into Nitrates. Once your first signs of Nitrates are seen you are on the next stage.

Stage 3: Nitrate Cycle

Nitrates are removed within the live rock deep inside in all of the deep pours. This hidden bacteria consumes the nitrate and creates nitrogen gas as a byproduct. The nitrogen gas rises in the water column and escapes into the air. When one gas leave, another enters. Oxygen is then infused into the water. After the Nitrates start to dissipate your oxygen will increase and you will be ready for the intermission:

Intermission:

You are not done yet! You may have cultivated a nice crop of groovy bacteria and your water may be clean as can be, but, there are still 3 more stages to the cycle process before you can start your stocking. Take this time to consume all of which you have already done. The next 3 stages often put fear into the eyes of many newcomers. These are perfectly natural and are partially a representation of how the earth became an oxygen rich planet. Before there was any oxygen breathing organisms, there was the evolution of Cyanobacteria. This is a photosynthetic bacteria that creates Oxygen as a byproduct. There are several colors, but the commonality is that it is like a slime. The Cyanobacteria spread over a vast area and the atmosphere became oxygen rich like we breath today, without the smog. Cyanobacteria is responsible for life as we know it. The same applies to the reef. Now that your mind has been blown you may move on to the next stage of the cycle.

Pre-Algae Cycle:

If your lights have not been setup yet do so now. Set your timers as you would for a reef tank. Anywhere from 6-12 hours is a good amount of time. Set the photoperiod to be on during the hours you will be viewing the tank most. If you work 2nd shift it is OK to have the lights come on after you get home from work or when you wake up in the morning. As long as there is not a supply of sunlight near the tank you wont have a long term battle with algae.

Stage 4: Diatoms

diatom algae image via reef2reef member @Steven R

Diatoms are a brown dusty life form that consumes silicates. There is no avoiding Diatoms during their initial bloom. Leave it be. Let it go crazy. Before you know it, the brown stuff will soon start to change colors. Generally red, this is the start of the next stage!

Stage 5: Cyanobacteria

cyanobacteria image via reef2reef member @Murfman

Cyanobacteria will now begin its course. Again you will let the slime just do its thing. This will be the nastiest of the stages. Cyanobacteria can gross some people out, especially if they catch a whiff of it. It is best to leave it be. It will start to clear up eventually. The clearing of the slime makes way for yet another stage.

Stage 6: Green/Brown algae

hair algae image via reef2reef member @johnmaloney

If you have made it this far, give yourself a round of applause. This is the final “battle” of the cycle process. When the slime is gone you will see your first signs of plant life, algae! Green Hair algae is usually the type that you see, but some other types have been known to occur. This stuff will grow like mad. At this point you are ready to move on to the next phase.

The cycle is a long process in terms of hobbies. Find yourself a good rhythm for testing. Get yourself in the habit of staring for long periods of time. Practice observation by watching as life forms start taking foot in the aquarium. You will see things from dust sized particles to worms that reach a foot long. There really is no telling what could form in your tank. This is a great time to prepare for the animals you will get. Knowing how to describe things and being able to correctly test the water will help you get the information you need. Your parameters are perfect now. You are now ready to move on to the next section. You should actually study the next section during your cycle, since you will have quite a bit of time on your hands with all that waiting.

Cycles can be artificially induced, but it is always preferred to use as little foreign liquids as possible. Another thing you can do during the cycle is preparing your clean up crew and first fish, but be prepared to keep them quarantined for a prolonged time since the cycle is unpredictable.

 

[ccoffel81]

Dbl Good info great read. Will help many.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

hello, everyone
i am new to saltwater tank, and i am doing cycling for my First tank, it has been 17days, i have added ammonia and dr tim's one and only when i set up my tank at frist day. the ammonia has rised up to 5ppm and i did water change, it dropped off about 2ppm, then nitrite was raising up until to 5ppm. and i have Monitored ammonia and nitrite daily, both of them never dropp off. just stay 2ppm and 5ppm.and nitrate is 40ppm as well, so i think my tank has been stalled. so i did 70% water change today, and took test. the ammonia is 1 ppm, nitrite is still 5ppm. and nitrate is 20ppm. so what should i do now?just leave it own or add more bacteria?thanks

Stop doing water changes! It wouldn't hurt to add bacteria, the bacteria you added may have been dead. If you don't add bacteria, don't worry, it will get into your tank through the air and your tank will cycle.

Stop testing for nitrate until your nitrites are 0 ppm. It is a wasted test and time since nitrite in a tank will produce a false high nitrate test. These tests change nitrate into nitrite, and then measure total nitrite to determine nitrates in the tank.

If you dose ammonia, you should only dose to 2ppm. I would wait until your ammonia and nitrite go to 0 ppm and then dose ammonia to 2 ppm and see how long it takes to cycle back to 0 ppm ammonia and nitrite.

 

[brandon429]

Also, we can't advise your cycle procedure until we know if you are using dry rocks which need cycling, or live rocks that are already cycled. Half the time it's the live rock version, which is handled oppositely from dry rock cycling

 

[sawyer010]

Also, we can't advise your cycle procedure until we know if you are using dry rocks which need cycling, or live rocks that are already cycled. Half the time it's the live rock version, which is handled oppositely from dry rock cycling

i use dry live rock without curing.thanks

 

[brandon429]

Good deal, on track. Cycling is about submersion time frames, we can easily cycle the rest of the way without any testing at all if you want a very simple option.

Works like this
Everything you've done so far is enough feed and bac

Just let the tank run as is until day forty

Change 100% of the water

Add some starter corals and clean up crew, it's not possible for your tank to not cycle by day forty in the current condition, there's no way to stop it unless you medicate the tank. When you get any form of invader shown above, immediately clean them out of the tank with a minor water change, be busy hand guiding until your system is more stable against invaders, don't let them takeover ever. The bac are ready by day forty the algae battling never stops never farm it or keep it awaiting something else to remove it, garden your garden

Remember, submersion time runs cycling not what test kits say. You've dosed in the approximation zones the bac need, now just let em stick. What your test kits say from here on out doesn't matter one iota as they may not be accurate anyway. They're approximations and what you've shown is well on its way. Next actions are wait till day forty change all water/begin
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

 

[Elegance Coral]

Like IslandLifeReef said, "Stop doing water changes."

I strongly disagree with much of the info in post #2 above. You would do well by disregarding that post. Sorry.

1. Make sure the lights are off. You don't want to power photosynthesis, and grow algae that compete with the bacteria you're trying to grow. This may also help reduce algae problems later on.
2. Crank up the temperature. 90 degrees is fine. Just remember to cool the tank off BEFORE adding livestock once the cycle is over.
3.Move the water as much as possible, and remove any covers over the tank. If you have extra water pumps, or air pumps, add them to the tank. The bacteria you're trying to grow can consume vast quantities of O2. The more O2 you can pump into the tank, the better.
4. Add a little, very little, fish food, or seafood. Bacteria require more than just ammonia to grow and reproduce. They also require things like amino acids and carbohydrates/sugar. If these things become limiting, bacteria growth will suffer.

The reality is that the tank will cycle if you do absolutely nothing at all. Mother nature will do her thing with or without your intervention at this point. The tips above are simply methods to speed things up and produce a stronger/healthier biological filter once it's all over.

Peace
EC

 

[brandon429]

Disagreed

In no way will bacteria suffer, or that would be covered in the large work thread linked

We have collected fallow testing extremes there as further case study, no feeding for 36 months

wait till day forty, change water, do nothing, add nothing, you aren't going to stall your cycle by anything you withhold

Remember all the eighties wasnt about bac feeding, testing or stalling

The lfs owner refused to sell us gouramis before day thirty of submersion only, by treated tap water only, across every pet store in every state. The bac seeded themselves and fed themselves in a tank of plastic decor said happy fish additions day thirty.

The nineties just figured out how charge everyone for a bottle of aquarium water as required bac $ they got smart like the human supplements market

Our thread states from a microbiological perspective only three things that limit a cycle: temp, drying and meds.

We cover in the thread the unassisted cycle, which is the polar opposite of what EC said was possible, that couldn't exist in a world where what humans add or dont add controls a cycle. All the eighties was unassisted duration only cycles, every bank you ever perused with bleached skeletons as the substrate, nobody fed anything they waited one month with water then they added six lion fish.

Don't think I'm just picking a bone, the statement comes from exhaustive work linked right above that says cycles cannot stall, we use that biology to allow tank invasion work actually, its not so much purely for cycling. once we know what bacteria allow, we're able to do certain things during tank invasions to stop the invasions, and if the bac were weak we couldn't. since cycling affects how peoples tank invasions play out, the details really matter to thread runners


Testing and precision vs duration patience does have a place in aquarium science... Speed cycling. The quickest way to pack biofilm on cycling dry surfaces is with exacting ammonia measures from HQ test kit reads, and timed bottle bac additions. About twelve days is the absolute fastest you can plate onto surfaces that which naturally forms in forty-50 days given any form of boost whatsoever. So if you've got forty days total to wait, then it's easy. If for some reason you need it now, there's ways to assess if it worked. Post six in the thread/oxidation testing.

As soon as cycle stalling becomes reality, we will get posts in the thread showing something other than .25 and unable to pass oxidation testing on the dates stated for each kind of cycle

 

[ccoffel81]

Like IslandLifeReef said, "Stop doing water changes."

I strongly disagree with much of the info in post #2 above. You would do well by disregarding that post. Sorry.

2. Crank up the temperature. 90 degrees is fine. .

Peace
EC

O2 will not stay in the water at that temperature so nothing can live. Nothing beneficial imo. http://omp.gso.uri.edu/ompweb/doee/science/physical/choxy1.htm

 

[pdiehm]

I'm in the same boat, but I'm on day 2. I shut off my pumps, dumped a bottle of Dr. Tim's into the tank. Let that settle on my rocks for a good 40 minutes, and kicked everything on. I added in 488 drops of ammonia chloride (4 drops per gallon), which according to the instructions is 2ppm. That was on Sunday. Yesterday I tested, and my ammonia was at about 1, added in 244 drops of ammonia to get it back to 2ppm.

I will not add any more ammonia now until the reading is 0.5ppm. Then I'll add back up to 2ppm. This time, I'll wait until it's at 0ppm. I'll add another 2ppm and if it's at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite in 24 hours, I'm cycled.

What I haven't done before is cycle through the algae stages with the lights on. So if I'm understanding correctly, once I'm at 0 ammonia and nitrite, and can process 2ppm in 24 hours, start running the lights as I will be doing. Let the tank go through diatoms, then cyano, and into hair.

Questions: At what point do I add the CUC? Do I kick on my algae scrubber when I start running the tank with the light cycle?

 

[Elegance Coral]

Our thread states from a microbiological perspective only three things that limit a cycle: temp, drying and meds.

With all due respect, "Our thread" is simply wrong. To suggest, that the availability of nutrients has no effect on bacterial growth and reproduction, is absurd.
We don't need a degree in micro biology to comprehend this very basic and simple concept. For most people, it's just common sense.
Bleach a kitchen counter top, come back the next day, and count the number of microbes growing on that counter top.
Then, wipe that same kitchen counter top with some old greasy, slimy, chicken skin, and come back the next day to test the microbial count.
Naturally, the microbial count will be much greater after the counter top had been wiped with nutrient rich chicken skin slim.

The OP started with virtually sterile, dry, base rock. The goal with cycling a tank is to grow bacteria on those rocks.
The availability of life sustaining nutrients will have a huge impact on the speed at which those bacteria grow and reproduce.
This isn't even arguable. This is why we clean our kitchens and bath rooms, and remove nutrients from these places. So that bacteria don't grow very fast.

There are way to many variables to pick a random number of days, like 40, and say that this is when a cycle is over. Most cycles today are completed much faster than this.
However, without knowing all the variables, we could not possibly attempt to come up with a number like that. Bacteria don't have calendars. Without knowing the temperature,
oxygen level, species of microbe, starting number of microbes, or availability of nutrients, we could not possibly, even attempt to come up with such a number. Try cycling a tank at 35 degrees.

Like I said in my original post. The cycle will take place with or without the OP's intervention from this point. Microbes are incredible organisms, capable of surviving very nutrient poor environments.
However, the availability of life sustaining nutrients has a HUGE impact on the rate at with they grow and reproduce. The faster they reproduce, the shorter the cycle.

Peace
EC

 

[sawyer010]

hello, everyone
i have new reading for my nitrite and ammonia, my nitrite is still 5ppm, and my ammonia is 0.5ppm. so i still feel confused why my nitrite never change?

 

[ccoffel81]

hello, everyone
i have new reading for my nitrite and ammonia, my nitrite is still 5ppm, and my ammonia is 0.5ppm. so i still feel confused why my nitrite never change?

Still breaking down, it just takes time.

 

[ccoffel81]

hello, everyone
i have new reading for my nitrite and ammonia, my nitrite is still 5ppm, and my ammonia is 0.5ppm. so i still feel confused why my nitrite never change?

Are you going reef or fish only?? Fish only wait until cycle is completed. Reef you have many months before you can add coral(system needs to be mature).

 

[sawyer010]

i just want fish only, i have did about 70% water change, and nitrite never changed

 

[ccoffel81]

i just want fish only, i have did about 70% water change, and nitrite never changed

I will say it and two people already did STOP DOING WATER CHANGES! You reset the process. Ammonia changes to nitrite then to nitrate if you remove it in the middle of one of the steps it messes everything up.

 

[sawyer010]

I will say it and two people already did STOP DOING WATER CHANGES! You reset the process. Ammonia changes to nitrite then to nitrate if you remove it in the middle of one of the steps it messes everything up.

yeah， i mean i did water change yesterday when i post this thread, so i never change water during cycling at moment,so i will wait for changes.thanks

 

[Elegance Coral]

You have two different colonies of bacteria growing in your tank. Nitrosomonas, which oxidizes ammonia into nitrite, and Nitrobacter that oxidizes nitrite into nitrate. When both colonies are growing at the same time, nitrite levels can seem to remain constant. This is due to nitrosomonas bacteria increasing the nitrite level, while at the same time, nitrobacter bacteria are reducing it. In time, the nitrosomonas bacteria will run out of ammonia, and stop, or drastically reduce, the amount of nitrite they produce. At that point, you will begin to see a drop in nitrite levels, as nitrobacter keep doing their job, reproducing, and reducing nitrite levels. When you can no longer get a reading for nitrite, it will be safe to slowly start stocking the tank.
Peace
EC

 

[sawyer010]

You have two different colonies of bacteria growing in your tank. Nitrosomonas, which oxidizes ammonia into nitrite, and Nitrobacter that oxidizes nitrite into nitrate. When both colonies are growing at the same time, nitrite levels can seem to remain constant. This is due to nitrosomonas bacteria increasing the nitrite level, while at the same time, nitrobacter bacteria are reducing it. In time, the nitrosomonas bacteria will run out of ammonia, and stop, or drastically reduce, the amount of nitrite they produce. At that point, you will begin to see a drop in nitrite levels, as nitrobacter keep doing their job, reproducing, and reducing nitrite levels. When you can no longer get a reading for nitrite, it will be safe to slowly start stocking the tank.
Peace
EC

You have two different colonies of bacteria growing in your tank. Nitrosomonas, which oxidizes ammonia into nitrite, and Nitrobacter that oxidizes nitrite into nitrate. When both colonies are growing at the same time, nitrite levels can seem to remain constant. This is due to nitrosomonas bacteria increasing the nitrite level, while at the same time, nitrobacter bacteria are reducing it. In time, the nitrosomonas bacteria will run out of ammonia, and stop, or drastically reduce, the amount of nitrite they produce. At that point, you will begin to see a drop in nitrite levels, as nitrobacter keep doing their job, reproducing, and reducing nitrite levels. When you can no longer get a reading for nitrite, it will be safe to slowly start stocking the tank.
Peace
EC

yeah, you are total right, my Nitrobacter bacteria seem die off due to high ammonia level before?