Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).

[Edgecrusher28]

I am always annoyed if experts are trying to tell that zoas like dirty water. If i didn't dose phosphates and nitrates they would always measure 0. Doesn't mean i am adding dirt to my tank.
My alkalinity is very stable though, because i am dosing each hour. It's just my ph that started to increase lately.

As of right now im even thinking about buying a cheap t5 lighting to check if the spectrum is the reason. Far fetched idea and other people are having success with LEDs but maybe there is something wrong with the wavelengh and i am out of ideas.

I was a nano-meter away from buying the ATI SunPower T5 fixture for this exact reason. I have not pulled the trigger because I really wanted the Mitra's 7206 lights by GHL as those have a very similar spectrum to T5 and buying both is a little spendy for me.

 

[Tavero]

This is getting ridiculous.
Now my last frags of alien explosions are shrinking. The only thing i changed two weeks ago was increasing my white and red light for better color. Now the only polys that are still in their original size are growing in the shadow out of direct light.
I want to mention that this can't be intensity/par because i have only 30w over 84l and as a matter of fact not a single zoa frag is growing at the moment. Not even the ones at the bottom of the tank.
One week ago i did a 50% water change and are dosing h2o2 constantly. My ORP is so high, i don't think there are a Lot of organics in my water, if at all.
I have now completely shut off my white light.
Rest of my corals are still happy, although i have to admit the colors of my echinopora are kinda pale, a sign for low nutrient levels.
I am dosing 0.05mg/l phosphate and 10mg/l nitrate and feeding heavily. No idea what else i am supposed to do.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

It has been a bit since I have done the last update, but things are about the same as they have previously been with no real improvement. I continue to notice strange occurrences with a few zoa frags where they will open up beautifully, and then within a day or two be completely closed up and dying. To me this has to be a pest or bacterial/pathogen issue given the absolute randomness to it. I just do not understand how a Zoa can be closed for weeks, open up and look great, and then dye days later.

ICP TEST RESULTS BACK 5-23-23 (95% score)
Previously, I had a small concern about removing the lingering amounts of Aluminum in the tank and to combat this issue I removed all of my MarinePure bio balls and completed a few water changes. I was happy to see that I was finally able to get rid of the aluminum but unfortunately there has been no notable improvements; UGGGH. This was my best overall ATI ICP score of all time at 95%, and once again this really confirms for me at least that my Zoa issues is not water parameter based.

AI PRIME LENES REPLACED 6-3-2-23
I have been running 4 AI prime HD's with the Salty pops schedule now for awhile and had noticed during a visual inspection that the UV bulbs were burning through the lenses. So in a desperate attempt to find a solution I have since replaced all four lenes with new units and will monitor going forward. Although it has only been a few days, I have not seen any improvement.


UPCOMING TREATMENTS (HERE COMES THE KITCHEN SINK) 6-6-23
COMPLETE IN-TANK ANTIBIOTIC AND PATHOGENIC TREATMENTS.
I have been very weary of doing a full in-tank antibiotic treatments given I didn't want my tank to crash or kill off other sensitive livestock. However; at this point, I have to up the ante because I am simply not enjoying this tank anymore. So going forward for the next five days, I will be doing a regular concentrated application of Amoxicillin and Cephalexin to the whole tank and taking the carbon reactor offline.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

This is getting ridiculous.
Now my last frags of alien explosions are shrinking. The only thing i changed two weeks ago was increasing my white and red light for better color. Now the only polys that are still in their original size are growing in the shadow out of direct light.
I want to mention that this can't be intensity/par because i have only 30w over 84l and as a matter of fact not a single zoa frag is growing at the moment. Not even the ones at the bottom of the tank.
One week ago i did a 50% water change and are dosing h2o2 constantly. My ORP is so high, i don't think there are a Lot of organics in my water, if at all.
I have now completely shut off my white light.
Rest of my corals are still happy, although i have to admit the colors of my echinopora are kinda pale, a sign for low nutrient levels.
I am dosing 0.05mg/l phosphate and 10mg/l nitrate and feeding heavily. No idea what else i am supposed to do.

I agree that our issues here are not likely PAR related. As I have previously mentioned, I have PAR tested my tank now twice with two separate meters. I have dropped down test frags about 6 extra inches and they are all stretching, and just like you I have tried all kinds of variations in spectrum, whites, greens, red etc; no change.

 

[littlebigreef]

Zoas: the ultimate Gordian Knot.

I'll add another wrinkle. @Edgecrusher28 have you considered trying vitamin c dosing?

 

[WarChief]

Nothing good to report as of now. The Aqua-Cephalexin treatment is done and the frags are back in the tank but look the same.

PH, ORP CONTROLLER/MONITOR AND C02 SCRUBBER INSTALLED.
I figured these two parameters are the only ones that were not verified via ICP testing so I installed equipment to monitor them but everything was normal. My tanks are in my basement and I had a thought that maybe my salifert kit was giving me bad PH readings and perhaps I actually had low/acidic PH due to C02. However, the ph was showing 8.23 with a freshly calibrated Milwaukee Probe. I ran the C02 scrubber For about two hours and the PH jumped up to 8.51, so I pulled it off the skimmer.

I am monitoring my ORP levels, because at first it showed a very concerning 96Mv reading when first installed but after being in the tank overnight it’s back to 280Mv. I will give it a few days to settle in and go from there. I may install an Ozone generator just to see if it helps because I just don’t know what else to even try at this point.

I added a DIY Co2 Scrubber to mine and my ORP has been steadily rising. I actually did a little write up on it. My PH went up a good bit. I am waiting for the ORP to stabilize and will determine if I should put the skimmer with the CO2 scrubber on a timer to get the numbers where they need to be.

DIY CO2 Scrubber

Total of the parts I used and posted here $79.93 First take and drill a hole in the top of the container ½” or however large you need it to bold one of the hose barbs in place. Next you will drill around 6 holes (aprox. 3/8” bit) in the center area of the base of the container (note do not push...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Zoas: the ultimate Gordian Knot.

I'll add another wrinkle. @Edgecrusher28 have you considered trying vitamin c dosing?

Please add every wrinkle you can think of, because at this point I would try about anything. However, to answer you question; yes. I use Brightwell Multivitamin and Vitamin-C supplements and unfortunately have not seen any positive improvements with its use. I will use up what I have purchased and stop dosing it when it runs out.

 

[Tavero]

I added a DIY Co2 Scrubber to mine and my ORP has been steadily rising. I actually did a little write up on it. My PH went up a good bit. I am waiting for the ORP to stabilize and will determine if I should put the skimmer with the CO2 scrubber on a timer to get the numbers where they need to be.

DIY CO2 Scrubber

Total of the parts I used and posted here $79.93 First take and drill a hole in the top of the container ½” or however large you need it to bold one of the hose barbs in place. Next you will drill around 6 holes (aprox. 3/8” bit) in the center area of the base of the container (note do not push...

www.reef2reef.com

Increasing ph did nothing for me. In fact i believe the zoas looked better when my ph was 7.9 and my kh was 6 (due to neglect).

Zoas: the ultimate Gordian Knot.

I'll add another wrinkle. @Edgecrusher28 have you considered trying vitamin c dosing?

I have also tried dosing Vitamin c for one month. It did absolutely nothing for me.

 

[Tavero]

It has been a bit since I have done the last update, but things are about the same as they have previously been with no real improvement. I continue to notice strange occurrences with a few zoa frags where they will open up beautifully, and then within a day or two be completely closed up and dying. To me this has to be a pest or bacterial/pathogen issue given the absolute randomness to it. I just do not understand how a Zoa can be closed for weeks, open up and look great, and then dye days later.

ICP TEST RESULTS BACK 5-23-23 (95% score)
Previously, I had a small concern about removing the lingering amounts of Aluminum in the tank and to combat this issue I removed all of my MarinePure bio balls and completed a few water changes. I was happy to see that I was finally able to get rid of the aluminum but unfortunately there has been no notable improvements; UGGGH. This was my best overall ATI ICP score of all time at 95%, and once again this really confirms for me at least that my Zoa issues is not water parameter based.

AI PRIME LENES REPLACED 6-3-2-23
I have been running 4 AI prime HD's with the Salty pops schedule now for awhile and had noticed during a visual inspection that the UV bulbs were burning through the lenses. So in a desperate attempt to find a solution I have since replaced all four lenes with new units and will monitor going forward. Although it has only been a few days, I have not seen any improvement.


UPCOMING TREATMENTS (HERE COMES THE KITCHEN SINK) 6-6-23
COMPLETE IN-TANK ANTIBIOTIC AND PATHOGENIC TREATMENTS.
I have been very weary of doing a full in-tank antibiotic treatments given I didn't want my tank to crash or kill off other sensitive livestock. However; at this point, I have to up the ante because I am simply not enjoying this tank anymore. So going forward for the next five days, I will be doing a regular concentrated application of Amoxicillin and Cephalexin to the whole tank and taking the carbon reactor offline.

Can you post your icp? I was browsing through old threads and have a theory.
How do you keep up your phosphates and nitrates? Natural sources or dosing nutrients? The last sudden degeneration of my alien explosions gave me an idea.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Can you post your icp? I was browsing through old threads and have a theory.
How do you keep up your phosphates and nitrates? Natural sources or dosing nutrients? The last sudden degeneration of my alien explosions gave me an idea.

Phosphates were actually pretty high on this test, I had been doing a good bit of feeding with Reef Roids and Polyp Booster. I do not dose N03 or P04, there hold steady with my feeding routine and the use of a skimmer and turf scrubber.

 

[Tavero]

Phosphates were actually pretty high on this test, I had been doing a good bit of feeding with Reef Roids and Polyp Booster. I do not dose N03 or P04, there hold steady with my feeding routine and the use of a skimmer and turf scrubber.

I would keep phosphates at that level. It seems that zoas affected by the "zoa melting syndrome" die slower with elevated nutrient levels. You can extend their suffering this way.
I am treating my tank right now with erythromycin. Sadly ciprofloxacin is not available to me so it would be interesting to hear of your full tank treatment with it. I also have observed a coating of diatoms on the mesoglea tissue of my sick zoas. These diatoms usually only grow on cleaned glas and fresh substrate never on my corals though. It seems that sick zoas are unable to defend themselfes from colonisation.
Pic of the diatoms

 

[Edgecrusher28]

I would keep phosphates at that level. It seems that zoas affected by the "zoa melting syndrome" die slower with elevated nutrient levels. You can extend their suffering this way.
I am treating my tank right now with erythromycin. Sadly ciprofloxacin is not available to me so it would be interesting to hear of your full tank treatment with it. I also have observed a coating of diatoms on the mesoglea tissue of my sick zoas. These diatoms usually only grow on cleaned glas and fresh substrate never on my corals though. It seems that sick zoas are unable to defend themselfes from colonisation.
Pic of the diatoms

Yeah I agree completely, there seems to be some sort of immune deficiency with Zoa's that show the melting trat, I just wish I knew what to do to fix the dang issue. Did you notice the diatoms before or after the Zoa was dead dead?

 

[Edgecrusher28]

UPDATE:

AMOXACILLIN AND CEPHALEXIN TREATMENT COMPLETE 6-11-23

I have just finished the 5 day antibiotic whole tank treatment with the use of Aqua-Mox and Aqua Ceph. Overall I could see small signs of some corals being upset, but it only appears that I killed off a section of my PPE cyphastrea; everything else seems fine. I did a 30% water change after the last day of dosing and installed from Rox.8 carbon into the reactor and turned it back on. Its very early in this treatment, but as of right now there is nothing improvement wise going on.


AQUABIOMICS MICROBIOME TEST:

I have gone back and forth about ordering these tests given for one, they are $100 bucks a pop. Secondly, I have heard that it can take well over a month to get your results back and I was naively hoping to have this solved about a year go. Anyways, I have now ordered two of the Microbiome test in an effort to see what pathogenic bacteria I may have present, or even perhaps see I am completing lacking some type of beneficial bacteria; who knows. At this point I am open to trying anything and having accurate information on the bacteria load of this tank will help me check off some boxes so I can move on to other possible remedies.

 

[Tavero]

Yeah I agree completely, there seems to be some sort of immune deficiency with Zoa's that show the melting trat, I just wish I knew what to do to fix the dang issue. Did you notice the diatoms before or after the Zoa was dead dead?

Zoas that are still growing, like my green hulk and fire and ice, don't grow any diatoms. Only frags that are struggling or dying, have some diatoms on their mesoglea. Some more some less. If they start their rapid death melt, the diatoms mostly disappear. I guess even diatoms don't like to grow on a putrid mass of death and decay.

 

[Hooz]

So what have your phosphates been tracking through all of this? I ask because I've been doing a LOT of reading on phosphates and coral recently for a similar issue that I've been experiencing.

In a nutshell: I moved last year and moved all my tanks. Everything looked great before the move (zoas, LPS, anemones, etc). After the move I lost a few things (a good chunk of my expensive zoas, of course). But eventually things leveled out, the tank went on autopilot again and things started looking good again. Some better than they'd ever looked.

Things looked so good that I got lazy on my testing. Everything looked great. But after about 5 months I figured I should do some testing and I freaked out when I saw my phosphates were over .2ppm (and Nitrates were 0, BTW)! UNACCEPTABLE! ... Keep in mind that everything looked good, some the best they'd ever looked ... But I started to gradually lower my phosphates because I was programmed that they needed to be under .1ppm (and I started raising Nitrates to around 5ppm). When I say "gradually", I'm talking about a period of weeks and months, and stuff started to look WORSE than it did before. I ended up losing a few more things in the process which was completely contradictory to what "should" happen.

Some Googling on seemingly unrelated topics led me to a post here from @Hans-Werner where he posited that corals adapt well enough to higher phosphates, but once they have adapted, it is very difficult to go the other way, often times leading to dying coral. He kind of bucks the trend and recommends running phosphates between .1-.2ppm. He talked mostly about SPS and LPS, but my lightbulb went on.

Prior to my move my phosphates hovered between .05-.1ppm and everything was fine. After the move, where I basically did an 80% water change, things started looking bad. Once things got "back to normal" and I stopped paying as close attention (and phosphates drifted up again) things started looking great. Then, commence panic and phosphate removal and more coral loss. It's purely anecdotal, but it tracks with what Hans was talking about.

I started letting my phosphates drift back up, and when they got OVER .1ppm, things in my tanks started calming down and looking good again.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

So what have your phosphates been tracking through all of this? I ask because I've been doing a LOT of reading on phosphates and coral recently for a similar issue that I've been experiencing.

In a nutshell: I moved last year and moved all my tanks. Everything looked great before the move (zoas, LPS, anemones, etc). After the move I lost a few things (a good chunk of my expensive zoas, of course). But eventually things leveled out, the tank went on autopilot again and things started looking good again. Some better than they'd ever looked.

Things looked so good that I got lazy on my testing. Everything looked great. But after about 5 months I figured I should do some testing and I freaked out when I saw my phosphates were over .2ppm (and Nitrates were 0, BTW)! UNACCEPTABLE! ... Keep in mind that everything looked good, some the best they'd ever looked ... But I started to gradually lower my phosphates because I was programmed that they needed to be under .1ppm (and I started raising Nitrates to around 5ppm). When I say "gradually", I'm talking about a period of weeks and months, and stuff started to look WORSE than it did before. I ended up losing a few more things in the process which was completely contradictory to what "should" happen.

Some Googling on seemingly unrelated topics led me to a post here from @Hans-Werner where he posited that corals adapt well enough to higher phosphates, but once they have adapted, it is very difficult to go the other way, often times leading to dying coral. He kind of bucks the trend and recommends running phosphates between .1-.2ppm. He talked mostly about SPS and LPS, but my lightbulb went on.

Prior to my move my phosphates hovered between .05-.1ppm and everything was fine. After the move, where I basically did an 80% water change, things started looking bad. Once things got "back to normal" and I stopped paying as close attention (and phosphates drifted up again) things started looking great. Then, commence panic and phosphate removal and more coral loss. It's purely anecdotal, but it tracks with what Hans was talking about.

I started letting my phosphates drift back up, and when they got OVER .1ppm, things in my tanks started calming down and looking good again.

Very interesting idea for sure, I suppose I can see that being a potential. However, overall I would say my phosphates have been relatively consistent over the last year or so, with a few peaks and lulls along the way. The highest they have ever been was an accidental .5ppm and they hover normally around .04 to .1ppm and that has been ICP verified. I have now notice around 4-5 different Zoa frags that have been introduced into the tank do very well on my magnetized rack where the par is the highest (small SPS portion of the tank), and then magically begin to show signs of distress when moved to the grow out location in my tank. I literally just did this test again with two Zoa frags and they did the exact same thing all the while the P04 was reasonably steady.

 

[Tavero]

So what have your phosphates been tracking through all of this? I ask because I've been doing a LOT of reading on phosphates and coral recently for a similar issue that I've been experiencing.

In a nutshell: I moved last year and moved all my tanks. Everything looked great before the move (zoas, LPS, anemones, etc). After the move I lost a few things (a good chunk of my expensive zoas, of course). But eventually things leveled out, the tank went on autopilot again and things started looking good again. Some better than they'd ever looked.

Things looked so good that I got lazy on my testing. Everything looked great. But after about 5 months I figured I should do some testing and I freaked out when I saw my phosphates were over .2ppm (and Nitrates were 0, BTW)! UNACCEPTABLE! ... Keep in mind that everything looked good, some the best they'd ever looked ... But I started to gradually lower my phosphates because I was programmed that they needed to be under .1ppm (and I started raising Nitrates to around 5ppm). When I say "gradually", I'm talking about a period of weeks and months, and stuff started to look WORSE than it did before. I ended up losing a few more things in the process which was completely contradictory to what "should" happen.

Some Googling on seemingly unrelated topics led me to a post here from @Hans-Werner where he posited that corals adapt well enough to higher phosphates, but once they have adapted, it is very difficult to go the other way, often times leading to dying coral. He kind of bucks the trend and recommends running phosphates between .1-.2ppm. He talked mostly about SPS and LPS, but my lightbulb went on.

Prior to my move my phosphates hovered between .05-.1ppm and everything was fine. After the move, where I basically did an 80% water change, things started looking bad. Once things got "back to normal" and I stopped paying as close attention (and phosphates drifted up again) things started looking great. Then, commence panic and phosphate removal and more coral loss. It's purely anecdotal, but it tracks with what Hans was talking about.

I started letting my phosphates drift back up, and when they got OVER .1ppm, things in my tanks started calming down and looking good again.

I mean yes, i've already had the hypothesis the zoas may experience malnutritition, but there is more to that. My tank would show 0 + 0 nutrients if i didn't dose them.
But thanks to my dosing pumps, i was running stable 0.03-0.05mg/l phosphate and 2-5mg/l nitrate for months and zoas we're happy and growing. Then suddenly they start to melt.
I do realize though these numbers are very low and i could improve my coral growth.
I have massively increased dosage and am running now at 0.2-0.3 mg/l phos and 20-25mg/l nitr since a few days ago. No improvement until now though.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

I mean yes, i've already had the hypothesis the zoas may experience malnutritition, but there is more to that. My tank would show 0 + 0 nutrients if i didn't dose them.
But thanks to my dosing pumps, i was running stable 0.03-0.05mg/l phosphate and 2-5mg/l nitrate for months and zoas we're happy and growing. Then suddenly they start to melt.
I do realize though these numbers are very low and i could improve my coral growth.
I have massively increased dosage and am running now at 0.2-0.3 mg/l phos and 20-25mg/l nitr since a few days ago. No improvement until now though.

If I have asked before my bad, but what lights are you running?

 

[Tavero]

If I have asked before my bad, but what lights are you running?

I dont think you asked because that's not an easy question to answer. I am running a diy LED light because i didn't like the color and price of commercial products.

2x uv
6x royal blue
4x blue
2x teal
3x white
1x red

I am running the light at 25-30%. Else it would be way too strong.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

I dont think you asked because that's not an easy question to answer. I am running a diy LED light because i didn't like the color and price of commercial products.

2x uv
6x royal blue
4x blue
2x teal
3x white
1x red

I am running the light at 25-30%. Else it would be way too strong.

Single puck type led though? I guess that’s what I was after. The folks that I have talked to who also have this issue all seem to use single puck type led’s.