Need Help with Trident Alkalinity

BRS

BroccoliFarmer

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That is a lot of speculation.

I have heard of a few bottles of calibration being reported as bad but nothing related to the unit on its own. Not that I would know about it as I don't work there. On the other hand I did preform the self service and that wasn't a part of the service package / kit.

The reason why some say don't chase numbers is because it will lead you to pull your hair out. They are different methods and different accuracy levels. Hanna HI755 ALK is +- 5 ppm for example.
Wihtout a doubt..it is a lot of speculation. But I have not been able to find anything that makes sense. I actually sent my purchase back in and got one back with exactly the same issues.. I dont want to chase numbers either..but I would be comfortable with consistency. I guess accuracy is just a bonus?

Regarding precision...see below. I call this exhibit 1. If you can't hit this precision and accuracy, you should not be advertising with it.

1669764868460.png
 
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Wihtout a doubt..it is a lot of speculation. But I have not been able to find anything that makes sense. I actually sent my purchase back in and got one back with exactly the same issues.. I dont want to chase numbers either..but I would be comfortable with consistency. I guess accuracy is just a bonus?

Regarding precision...see below. I call this exhibit 1. If you can't hit this precision and accuracy, you should not be advertising with it.

1669764868460.png

I can't speak to the situation you have or are experiencing. I can only speak of mine. In my case the Trident is the source of record so it stops there.

I have sent off ICP tests and when I do I will draw water a minute or two before the scheduled combined test and take the opportunity to run whatever manual tests I have available to me. Usually Hanna Alk, Phosphate, and Nitrate - because they are stupid easy. Log everything and wait for ATI's results. Then compare.

I do not have lab grade tools nor certified solutions to do these sorts of tests. On the other hand I have run tests with my Trident using Fauna Marin and Neptunes calibration solutions with close results. I can't complain. But again this is just my experience.


1669765839461.png


1669765855022.png


1669765870724.png
 

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I can't speak to the situation you have or are experiencing. I can only speak of mine. In my case the Trident is the source of record so it stops there.

I have sent off ICP tests and when I do I will draw water a minute or two before the scheduled combined test and take the opportunity to run whatever manual tests I have available to me. Usually Hanna Alk, Phosphate, and Nitrate - because they are stupid easy. Log everything and wait for ATI's results. Then compare.

I do not have lab grade tools nor certified solutions to do these sorts of tests. On the other hand I have run tests with my Trident using Fauna Marin and Neptunes calibration solutions with close results. I can't complain. But again this is just my experience.


1669765839461.png


1669765855022.png


1669765870724.png
What is the manufacturing date on your unit? As i said, my speculation is that it is a recent manufacturing run as it appears that most of the problems are with newer units.
 
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What is the manufacturing date on your unit? As i said, my speculation is that it is a recent manufacturing run as it appears that most of the problems are with newer units.

Over 2 years old but I know a fellow reefer who received a unit Aug 2022 that runs fine. There are so many variables as to why one hobbyist gets results A and another gets B comparing is moot. I just cannot buy into the sensor speculation though because if there was a issue we would see a lot more threads with the issue.

To be open though as you or someone else said maybe after the holiday sales there will be more posts. Who knows - I don't.
 

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Wihtout a doubt..it is a lot of speculation. But I have not been able to find anything that makes sense. I actually sent my purchase back in and got one back with exactly the same issues.. I dont want to chase numbers either..but I would be comfortable with consistency. I guess accuracy is just a bonus?

Regarding precision...see below. I call this exhibit 1. If you can't hit this precision and accuracy, you should not be advertising with it.

1669764868460.png
You’re finally starting to understand to look for consistency more than actual accuracy. It is sad to see an unfortunate but kind of the way it is once you get past it everything falls in place
 

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You’re finally starting to understand to look for consistency more than actual accuracy. It is sad to see an unfortunate but kind of the way it is once you get past it everything falls in place
Oh I agree. I am / would be happy with consistency. I can do the mental math. I am using it on the tank. Don’t trust it as far as I can throw it so I continually manually test with my Hanna’s weekly but I do use it to keep parameters in a reasonable range.

my response on this thread really was pointing out the recent deluge of people complaining about the accuracy of the testing. I was just speculating on a possible reason for the sudden influx of people with similar issues and similar back stories. The only other thing I can think of is that this has been the problem and people were less vocal about their issues. i doubt it but as some who claims to be logical, I have to accept the possibility.
 
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Oh I agree. I am / would be happy with consistency. I can do the mental math. I am using it on the tank. Don’t trust it as far as I can throw it so I continually manually test with my Hanna’s weekly but I do use it to keep parameters in a reasonable range.

my response on this thread really was pointing out the recent deluge of people complaining about the accuracy of the testing. I was just speculating on a possible reason for the sudden influx of people with similar issues and similar back stories. The only other thing I can think of is that this has been the problem and people were less vocal about their issues. i doubt it but as some who claims to be logical, I have to accept the possibility.
For what it’s worth it’s been a long time since I Ave checked mine against Hanna. Like a good 10-12 months. I do remember back then it was consistently .3-.4 lower then Hanna tested. Very consistant for the 7-8x I checked it so figure don’t need to anymore. Since then haven’t checked it since because I feel confidant it’s .3-.4 lower then Hanna and I can accept that. I’d rather it read lower then it is then higher then it is anyways. So trident 7.5 is hanna 8.0 or trident 7.9 is hanna 8.4 either way we are good.
 

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For what it’s worth it’s been a long time since I Ave checked mine against Hanna. Like a good 10-12 months. I do remember back then it was consistently .3-.4 lower then Hanna tested. Very consistant for the 7-8x I checked it so figure don’t need to anymore. Since then haven’t checked it since because I feel confidant it’s .3-.4 lower then Hanna and I can accept that. I’d rather it read lower then it is then higher then it is anyways. So trident 7.5 is hanna 8.0 or trident 7.9 is hanna 8.4 either way we are good.

Or the Hanna reads higher than the Trident? Back to Abbot and Costello and Who is on First... :D
 

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Here's what I found that worked for me. I got mine April or May of 2020.

Use six months reagents so you can test one of the calibration samples, should all three be from same batch. Replace your reagents with those from the same batch (I typically have lots left over from other batches that I will run until done).

Test a sample for all three parameters using Hanna tests. Record on the bottle and be sure its within margin of error, if not, check your Hanna process or regents too. Use another sample if needed for a sanity check as one should have three.

Once recorded, change the sample from the tank to your recorded sample and prime using the configure option.

Run the calibration and enter the numbers from your Hanna you recorded on the two samples. If they are slightly different, use the median of the two. If you aren't getting decent results still in the 8-10dkH range at this point, it could be a faulty unit.
 
BRS

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Or the Hanna reads higher than the Trident? Back to Abbot and Costello and Who is on First... :D
So I just did a calibration and reagent swap. I’m one of the people whose units is reading Alk low. In all the back and forth with Neptune, I used all of my calibration solution so I used a brand new bottle of Fauna Marin. It has a standard Alk of 6.6. I tested it with 3 manual tests while trident was calibrating. Hanna 6.7, salifert 6.7, Lamotte 6.6. After I calibrated Trident I ran a combined test right out of the same bottle of solution and it gave an Alk reading of 5.15. So who do you think I should believe? The 4 other sources telling me it’s probably 6.6, or Trident? I’ve also used these tests to verify the accuracy of Neptune’s solution. I’ve only had the unit 4 months so the first batch of calibration solution was about .85 lower than all of those tests. Then I bought a 3 month supply so the solution that came with that were all from the same batch. That one read about .6 lower than all the other tests. Now who’s on 1st, 2nd and 3rd? And who’s not even in the ballpark?
 

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So I just did a calibration and reagent swap. I’m one of the people whose units is reading Alk low. In all the back and forth with Neptune, I used all of my calibration solution so I used a brand new bottle of Fauna Marin. It has a standard Alk of 6.6. I tested it with 3 manual tests while trident was calibrating. Hanna 6.7, salifert 6.7, Lamotte 6.6. After I calibrated Trident I ran a combined test right out of the same bottle of solution and it gave an Alk reading of 5.15. So who do you think I should believe? The 4 other sources telling me it’s probably 6.6, or Trident? I’ve also used these tests to verify the accuracy of Neptune’s solution. I’ve only had the unit 4 months so the first batch of calibration solution was about .85 lower than all of those tests. Then I bought a 3 month supply so the solution that came with that were all from the same batch. That one read about .6 lower than all the other tests. Now who’s on 1st, 2nd and 3rd? And who’s not even in the ballpark?

I think if you did the things you said and it is still lower then you open a ticket with Neptune, articulate your process and results, and go from there.

While this isn't about me it is about the variance we see across several products between hobbyist and how one has experience A and the other B. Really odd. For example I just calibrated my Trident last week. Neptune bottle alk 8.95, Ca 464 and Mg 1357. After all was said and done later in the day I brought out the calibration solution, wiped down the sample line, placed it in the calibration solution, and test results showed Alk 8.35, Ca 417, and Mg 1300.
 

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My calcium became sky high and I just reset a new tank and about to find out if it repeats.
 
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I think if you did the things you said and it is still lower then you open a ticket with Neptune, articulate your process and results, and go from there.

While this isn't about me it is about the variance we see across several products between hobbyist and how one has experience A and the other B. Really odd. For example I just calibrated my Trident last week. Neptune bottle alk 8.95, Ca 464 and Mg 1357. After all was said and done later in the day I brought out the calibration solution, wiped down the sample line, placed it in the calibration solution, and test results showed Alk 8.35, Ca 417, and Mg 1300.
I’ve spoken with Neptune 3x now. They keep insisting that the trident is correct and all the other tests are wrong (or within the margin of error). I’m sorry, but 3 tests from well regarded and trusted tests telling me one thing and Trident telling me something totally different tells me the unit is faulty. Whenever I calibrate with ANYTHING other than the Neptune solution, the trident will read around 1.5 lower than the solution I just gave it. I’m pretty irritated with Neptune over it. I debated with myself for a long time about whether to get one or not. After reading SO many posts about inaccurate readings and finding the solution to be “calibrate with your own tank water and your trusted test results” I finally pulled the trigger when they were on sale 4 months ago. Unfortunately my unit just won’t do it. The trident calibration solution has proven to me to be inaccurate, so basically my trident always gives inaccurate amounts equal to however inaccurate the most recent batch of calibration solution was.
 

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I’ve spoken with Neptune 3x now. They keep insisting that the trident is correct and all the other tests are wrong (or within the margin of error). I’m sorry, but 3 tests from well regarded and trusted tests telling me one thing and Trident telling me something totally different tells me the unit is faulty. Whenever I calibrate with ANYTHING other than the Neptune solution, the trident will read around 1.5 lower than the solution I just gave it. I’m pretty irritated with Neptune over it. I debated with myself for a long time about whether to get one or not. After reading SO many posts about inaccurate readings and finding the solution to be “calibrate with your own tank water and your trusted test results” I finally pulled the trigger when they were on sale 4 months ago. Unfortunately my unit just won’t do it. The trident calibration solution has proven to me to be inaccurate, so basically my trident always gives inaccurate amounts equal to however inaccurate the most recent batch of calibration solution was.

So just to clarify - ignoring all test kits. You spoke to Neptune and said you calibrated it with their solution matching the numbers on the bottle then immediately after ran a combined test using the same calibration solution and it was off by 1 full point?
 

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I’ve spoken with Neptune 3x now. They keep insisting that the trident is correct and all the other tests are wrong (or within the margin of error). I’m sorry, but 3 tests from well regarded and trusted tests telling me one thing and Trident telling me something totally different tells me the unit is faulty. Whenever I calibrate with ANYTHING other than the Neptune solution, the trident will read around 1.5 lower than the solution I just gave it. I’m pretty irritated with Neptune over it. I debated with myself for a long time about whether to get one or not. After reading SO many posts about inaccurate readings and finding the solution to be “calibrate with your own tank water and your trusted test results” I finally pulled the trigger when they were on sale 4 months ago. Unfortunately my unit just won’t do it. The trident calibration solution has proven to me to be inaccurate, so basically my trident always gives inaccurate amounts equal to however inaccurate the most recent batch of calibration solution was.

Same thing happened with me. After back and forth calls/emails with Neptune and no help in resolving the issue it was decided to send the Trident in for repair. I said forget and just learned to "live" with it. It is consistent which is a good thing so I can just adjust for what my other kits say.

I agree though. I had 3 different kits all reading the same except for the Trident. There are a bunch of posts about this issue so clearly it seems to be on their end.
 
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Gophish1982

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So just to clarify - ignoring all test kits. You spoke to Neptune and said you calibrated it with their solution matching the numbers on the bottle then immediately after ran a combined test using the same calibration solution and it was off by 1 full point?
No, when I calibrate with their incorrect calibration solution, it holds the incorrect calibration. My first batch of Neptune solution read .8dkh higher and my 2nd batch read .65 higher. I verified it with Hanna, salifert, and LaMotte Alk tests. So when I calibrate with their solution, it continues to give me test results that much lower than my tank really is.

I went back and forth with myself about buying a trident for a while. I read many posts about how inaccurate it was, and how their solution is never right, but the work around was to calibrate with tank water. It even states on Neptune’s website that you can calibrate using tank water and the results from your trusted test. That is not accurate though. That work around was the reason I finally pulled the trigger on a product that otherwise has less than stellar reviews.
 

ocncheffy

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No, when I calibrate with their incorrect calibration solution, it holds the incorrect calibration. My first batch of Neptune solution read .8dkh higher and my 2nd batch read .65 higher. I verified it with Hanna, salifert, and LaMotte Alk tests. So when I calibrate with their solution, it continues to give me test results that much lower than my tank really is.

I went back and forth with myself about buying a trident for a while. I read many posts about how inaccurate it was, and how their solution is never right, but the work around was to calibrate with tank water. It even states on Neptune’s website that you can calibrate using tank water and the results from your trusted test. That is not accurate though. That work around was the reason I finally pulled the trigger on a product that otherwise has less than stellar reviews.
Just an idea,

Have you tried testing their calibration solution with salifert/hanna? Then use their solution for calibration/priming but use the values you received from the other test kits for the calibration solution and ignore the bottle values. I'm having the exact issue you have, and I think this resolved it. I don't understand why I cant calibrate with my tank water either, it simply doesn't hold the values.
 

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What worked for us:

We were getting a 1.5 dKH lower value on trident than our Hanna alkalinity tester.
The trident was so low that it did not seem believable.
We could not get the Trident to calibrate so it would agree with the Hanna alkalinity tester. When we attempted to calibrate the trident upwards 1.5 dKH using tank water, it seemed to work until the next scheduled test. At the next regularly scheduled test the trident would revert to the values it reported before we had calibrated it.

I SUSPECTED that Trident is programmed to prevented making a large calibration.

I SUSPECTED that if you calibrate more than 1.0 DKH it assumes error and reverts to the last calibration performed with Neptune calibration fluid.
I tried to think of a workaround.
I decided to try to perform a tank water calibration in many different steps. Each time, I only calibrated a portion of the total desired calibration.
It worked and held the values UNTIL I had changed it a total of about 1.0 dKH. After the total of all my calibrations exceeded this 1.0 dKH level, it seemed to throw out all the calibrations and go back to the values it was reporting before I tried to do anything. Back to square one.
Next, I suspected that maybe something else was the cause. The trident comes with a part they call “optional trident sample line filter”. This is a tiny filter about the size of a dime that goes on the end of the sample uptake line that is in your sump. They tell you to use it if you have turbid water and want to keep debris out of the sample line. From the very beginning, we used it because we felt it was good to keep debris out of the trident. I decided that maybe this filter was altering the test results of the trident. I thought maybe the trident had been factory calibrated without this filter attached and maybe adding it could have affected the Trident results. We had never calibrated using anything except tank water before.

I decided that we should calibrate trident using Neptune fluid and WITH THE FILTER IN PLACE.

We performed the calibration with the Neptune fluid and filter attached. Afterwards, the trident was reading only 0.5 dKH less than the Hanna tester. Much closer.
We then performed a ATI-ICP-OES test and the result from ATI matched up very closely with the trident and also was 0.5 DKH lower than Hanna.

Here is my conclusion:

If you are running the “optional trident sample line filter”, try performing a calibration using Neptune fluid with the optional sample line filter in place.

I believe you’ll end up having trident values about 0.5 dKH less than your Hanna alkalinity tester.

I felt that 0.5 difference between Trident and Hanna was a reasonable amount. Since ATI agreed more closely with the trident after calibrating with the filter attached, I now trust the trident and believe the Hanna to be 0.5 dKH high. Regular testing with the Hanna remains consistently 0.5 higher than the trident.
I sincerely hope this can help some of you struggling with large differences between Trident and Hanna for alkalinity. It worked for us.
 

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ocncheffy

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What worked for us:

We were getting a 1.5 dKH lower value on trident than our Hanna alkalinity tester.
The trident was so low that it did not seem believable.
We could not get the Trident to calibrate so it would agree with the Hanna alkalinity tester. When we attempted to calibrate the trident upwards 1.5 dKH using tank water, it seemed to work until the next scheduled test. At the next regularly scheduled test the trident would revert to the values it reported before we had calibrated it.

I SUSPECTED that Trident is programmed to prevented making a large calibration.

I SUSPECTED that if you calibrate more than 1.0 DKH it assumes error and reverts to the last calibration performed with Neptune calibration fluid.
I tried to think of a workaround.
I decided to try to perform a tank water calibration in many different steps. Each time, I only calibrated a portion of the total desired calibration.
It worked and held the values UNTIL I had changed it a total of about 1.0 dKH. After the total of all my calibrations exceeded this 1.0 dKH level, it seemed to throw out all the calibrations and go back to the values it was reporting before I tried to do anything. Back to square one.
Next, I suspected that maybe something else was the cause. The trident comes with a part they call “optional trident sample line filter”. This is a tiny filter about the size of a dime that goes on the end of the sample uptake line that is in your sump. They tell you to use it if you have turbid water and want to keep debris out of the sample line. From the very beginning, we used it because we felt it was good to keep debris out of the trident. I decided that maybe this filter was altering the test results of the trident. I thought maybe the trident had been factory calibrated without this filter attached and maybe adding it could have affected the Trident results. We had never calibrated using anything except tank water before.

I decided that we should calibrate trident using Neptune fluid and WITH THE FILTER IN PLACE.

We performed the calibration with the Neptune fluid and filter attached. Afterwards, the trident was reading only 0.5 dKH less than the Hanna tester. Much closer.
We then performed a ATI-ICP-OES test and the result from ATI matched up very closely with the trident and also was 0.5 DKH lower than Hanna.

Here is my conclusion:

If you are running the “optional trident sample line filter”, try performing a calibration using Neptune fluid with the optional sample line filter in place.

I believe you’ll end up having trident values about 0.5 dKH less than your Hanna alkalinity tester.

I felt that 0.5 difference between Trident and Hanna was a reasonable amount. Since ATI agreed more closely with the trident after calibrating with the filter attached, I now trust the trident and believe the Hanna to be 0.5 dKH high. Regular testing with the Hanna remains consistently 0.5 higher than the trident.
I sincerely hope this can help some of you struggling with large differences between Trident and Hanna for alkalinity. It worked for us.

So I was having the exact same issue as you, could never calibrate it properly. I also had the same theory that you cant calibrate with values that are too far off from your last test, otherwise it would never work. You can see my pic below that it read the appropriate values from my Hannah, then went right back to the wrong calibration on the next test.

What fixed it as you can see again the pic was to perform a factory reset in the trident settings. Wait till your values return a 0 in fusion, then perform a restart. Once the restart completes, run a calibration with the values you trust (Tank water or calibration fluid). This kept it perfectly in line with my hannah now. The deviation is only .02dkh on the alkalinity now.

Give this a try!

1675278059460.png
 

Lion6

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So I was having the exact same issue as you, could never calibrate it properly. I also had the same theory that you cant calibrate with values that are too far off from your last test, otherwise it would never work. You can see my pic below that it read the appropriate values from my Hannah, then went right back to the wrong calibration on the next test.

What fixed it as you can see again the pic was to perform a factory reset in the trident settings. Wait till your values return a 0 in fusion, then perform a restart. Once the restart completes, run a calibration with the values you trust (Tank water or calibration fluid). This kept it perfectly in line with my hannah now. The deviation is only .02dkh on the alkalinity now.

Give this a try!

1675278059460.png

Thanks for that! In the last step of your process to fix your trident, did you calibrate with tank water or did you calibrate with Neptune fluid?
 
BRS

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