New Achilles in QT showing symptoms of Velvet

[Fishyfish22]

I have a few fish I got from the LFS two days ago and put them all in a 75 gallon QT tank with 1ppm copper (confirmed with hannah checker)

Today, the achilles started showing symptoms of velvet. started with swimming straight into powerhead for long periods of time, then flashing. I checked and there are newly appeared white spots. My diagnosis is velvet.

Achilles was eating at the LFS, both pellets and nori (visually confirmed) however he hasnt eaten since i've gotten it into Qt

I'm about to do a freshwater dip, then a Ruby reef rally pro bath for a half hour in an aerated 5 gallon bucket. My question is this:

what do I do next? do I add it back to the 75 gallon with the other fish in QT? do I immediately ramp up the qt copper level to 2? do I add ruby reef rally to the whole qt system? will that have any issues when mixed with copper?

I have the qt tank set up for maximum aeration should I need it, air bubbles blown directly into powerheads. It does have proper circulation already.

Some help would be greatly appreciated, I know velvet strikes fast which makes me rather anxious about this.

medication on hand:
ruby reef rally
copper power
Seachem metroplex
Seachem Kanaplex
Seachem Focus
Seachem Garlic guard
prazipro

 

[Hugh Mann]

Well, I'd recommend treating all your fish in the QT the same way. It's inevitable that they'll have it too. I'd also say ramp up the copper to at least 1.7 over the next day or two. The fish won't like it, but as you say, Velvet is nasty. That is me though, with my one experience with velvet, all I did was FW dips and a fast ramp up of copper, but they were all hardy fish.

@Jay Hemdal probably has better and more appropriate advice.

 

[Fishyfish22]

Well, I'd recommend treating all your fish in the QT the same way. It's inevitable that they'll have it too. I'd also say ramp up the copper to at least 1.7 over the next day or two. The fish won't like it, but as you say, Velvet is nasty. That is me though, with my one experience with velvet, all I did was FW dips and a fast ramp up of copper, but they were all hardy fish.

@Jay Hemdal probably has better and more appropriate advice.

that's what I want to do but I can't find any results of what happens if i mix rally and copper in the tank.

 

[polyppal]

I have a few fish I got from the LFS two days ago and put them all in a 75 gallon QT tank with 1ppm copper (confirmed with hannah checker)

Today, the achilles started showing symptoms of velvet. started with swimming straight into powerhead for long periods of time, then flashing. I checked and there are newly appeared white spots. My diagnosis is velvet.

Achilles was eating at the LFS, both pellets and nori (visually confirmed) however he hasnt eaten since i've gotten it into Qt

I'm about to do a freshwater dip, then a Ruby reef rally pro bath for a half hour in an aerated 5 gallon bucket. My question is this:

what do I do next? do I add it back to the 75 gallon with the other fish in QT? do I immediately ramp up the qt copper level to 2? do I add ruby reef rally to the whole qt system? will that have any issues when mixed with copper?

I have the qt tank set up for maximum aeration should I need it, air bubbles blown directly into powerheads. It does have proper circulation already.

Some help would be greatly appreciated, I know velvet strikes fast which makes me rather anxious about this.

medication on hand:
ruby reef rally
copper power
Seachem metroplex
Seachem Kanaplex
Seachem Focus
Seachem Garlic guard
prazipro

I hear Rally works well in a bath for velvet, but Ive never used it. H2o2 baths have been shown to be effective as a velvet treatment (worked great on my white tail with velvet). After whatever bath treatment you use (id do all fish), you need to ramp up copper to treatment strength right away and treat any fish that were in the same QT with him previously the same.

Its normal for sick fish not to eat when in distress, they can go a long time without starving. Youll want to medicate the tank, keep the water quality as pristine as you can, make sure theres plenty of hiding places and keep it fairly dark. Let the fish hide and fight it for a few days...

good luck!

 

[Hugh Mann]

that's what I want to do but I can't find any results of what happens if i mix rally and copper in the tank.

When doubt, don't do it. I don't know anything about Ruby reef rally as I can't get it in Canada, however as I understand it, many meds don't mix with copper. Depletes the oxygen. But if you did the bath in a separate container, you should be good to go.
Best of luck! Velvet sucks in ways that cannot be said on the forum.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a few fish I got from the LFS two days ago and put them all in a 75 gallon QT tank with 1ppm copper (confirmed with hannah checker)

Today, the achilles started showing symptoms of velvet. started with swimming straight into powerhead for long periods of time, then flashing. I checked and there are newly appeared white spots. My diagnosis is velvet.

Achilles was eating at the LFS, both pellets and nori (visually confirmed) however he hasnt eaten since i've gotten it into Qt

I'm about to do a freshwater dip, then a Ruby reef rally pro bath for a half hour in an aerated 5 gallon bucket. My question is this:

what do I do next? do I add it back to the 75 gallon with the other fish in QT? do I immediately ramp up the qt copper level to 2? do I add ruby reef rally to the whole qt system? will that have any issues when mixed with copper?

I have the qt tank set up for maximum aeration should I need it, air bubbles blown directly into powerheads. It does have proper circulation already.

Some help would be greatly appreciated, I know velvet strikes fast which makes me rather anxious about this.

medication on hand:
ruby reef rally
copper power
Seachem metroplex
Seachem Kanaplex
Seachem Focus
Seachem Garlic guard
prazipro

As the others mentioned, you should get your copper up to a full dose (for whatever brand you are using). I've never mixed Ruby Reef with copper. The ingredients (as I understand them to be - acriflavine and formalin) should be o.k. with copper, but it will add extra stress, so I would probably not mix them, perhaps just use the Ruby Reef as a dip?

Is the achilles breathing fast? I see a lot of misdiagnosis with velvet that is actually ich.

What other fish are in the QT with it and how are they doing?

Just to confirm the ammonia level in the QT is at zero?

Jay

 

[Fishyfish22]

As the others mentioned, you should get your copper up to a full dose (for whatever brand you are using). I've never mixed Ruby Reef with copper. The ingredients (as I understand them to be - acriflavine and formalin) should be o.k. with copper, but it will add extra stress, so I would probably not mix them, perhaps just use the Ruby Reef as a dip?

Is the achilles breathing fast? I see a lot of misdiagnosis with velvet that is actually ich.

What other fish are in the QT with it and how are they doing?

Just to confirm the ammonia level in the QT is at zero?

Jay

goal is to get copper from 1 to 1.5 over 48 hours (4 doses), or should I aim for faster/higher?

My reason for thinking velvet was the flashing and swimming into the current nonstop.

Rest of the fish in the QT are tangs (Including a PBT, which is supposedly as sensitive to Ich and velvet as the Achilles yet hasn't showed anything), a potters wrasse (which is swimming, eating, and active), and a yellowtail damsel (survivor of the last velvet outbreak who had already through a QT treatment) no aggression.

ammonia is zero per API test kit, I've had hesitations with API in the past so if there's a better test kit I'll gladly switch over.

I gave the Achilles a 5 minute freshwater dip followed by an acriflavine (ruby reef rally pro) bath for 80 minutes with constant monitoring. It was in a 5 gallon bucket with 15mL of rally pro, air stone, and heater. Pulled through great, never laid on its side and swam around in the bucket the whole time which was my biggest worry.

Afterwards I added him back to the QT tank and while he's swimming into the powerhead a little, it's nowhere near as frequent as last time. He's swimming around the tank now, and is at least looking at the food when I feed. The rest of the fish are all eating and active.

The plan, for now at least, is to raise copper to 1.5 and then 2.5 over the week with rally baths to whoever needs them during the process. from there they will be in the tank for 14 days before moving to a 10 gallon for a day while the 75 gallon tank is sterilized and rebooted for the next steps. I'm currently feeding pellets, mysis, and Nori. all are soaked in Seachem garclic guard.

What else should I be doing? and what comes next? Should I be adding any Kanaplex, focus, or prazipro to the food before feeding?

 

[CivicS14]

If he’s already showing signs. I’d take copper all the way up to 2.25ppm with copper power right away. Velvet kills fast, time is of the essence. I saved a purple tang from velvet that I dropped him at a full strength of 2.5ppm. He didn’t eat for a few days but I saved his life. This is before and after.

 

[CivicS14]

As far as food, I just soaked mysis in selcon and after about 4 days he started going after it and he cleared up 100% in 10 days. Now he’s named superman.

 

[CivicS14]

Oh, I forgot to add... I lowered salinity over 5 days from 1.025 to 1.017 and did not light the tank because I read velvet can feed off light as well.

 

[joe0813]

id also ramp up the copper to therapeutic levels immediately

 

[Fishyfish22]

I was ramping up the copper based off of this thread

EMERGENCY - How fast can I ramp up copper power (velvet)

I have another post going in the disease forum but I need to act fast. Basically this morning I noticed my leopard wrasse in qt laying on its side breathing heavy, mouth open. The blue tang was breathing very fast. By 6pm the blue tang has passed. I'm trying to save the wrasse and I suspect I'm...

www.reef2reef.com

If he’s already showing signs. I’d take copper all the way up to 2.25ppm with copper power right away. Velvet kills fast, time is of the essence. I saved a purple tang from velvet that I dropped him at a full strength of 2.5ppm. He didn’t eat for a few days but I saved his life. This is before and after.

oh man, I'm glad you were able to save it! My worry with ramping copper all the way up to 2.25ppm is the damage it would have on the other fish that aren't expressing symptoms. Especially since the Achilles's white spots are gone for the time being. Though I do know and worry because of how fast velvet progresses. the hope is be above 1.5 at this time tomorrow.

Oh, I forgot to add... I lowered salinity over 5 days from 1.025 to 1.017 and did not light the tank because I read velvet can feed off light as well.

Salinity is at 1.18 currently

id also ramp up the copper to therapeutic levels immediately

Is therapeutic considered above 1.5 or 2.5? the method I was using as this thread created a few weeks ago

EMERGENCY - How fast can I ramp up copper power (velvet)

I have another post going in the disease forum but I need to act fast. Basically this morning I noticed my leopard wrasse in qt laying on its side breathing heavy, mouth open. The blue tang was breathing very fast. By 6pm the blue tang has passed. I'm trying to save the wrasse and I suspect I'm...

www.reef2reef.com

in which they recommend raising copper to 1.5 over 2 days from 1 to treat for symptoms of velvet.

it's my own fault for not checking, but apparently the LFS kept their copper at 1.5, so when I added them to the QT the copper was brought down to 1.

I also do apologize if i come off as second guessing the advice, I Just had a bad experience with velvet before and I know that medication when rushed can have its own negative results so I just want to triple check everything before I do anything

 

[jaganshi066]

If he’s already showing signs. I’d take copper all the way up to 2.25ppm with copper power right away. Velvet kills fast, time is of the essence. I saved a purple tang from velvet that I dropped him at a full strength of 2.5ppm. He didn’t eat for a few days but I saved his life. This is before and after.

Sorry guys I’ve never had velvet and I’m new to all this but isn’t anything over 1ppm a lot of copper. I quarantine with cupramine and I leave it at 0.5 and my fish have never gotten ich after being treated. I’m probably wrong but is there a different copper medication we are talking about?

 

[Fishyfish22]

Sorry guys I’ve never had velvet and I’m new to all this but isn’t anything over 1ppm a lot of copper. I quarantine with cupramine and I leave it at 0.5 and my fish have never gotten ich after being treated. I’m probably wrong but is there a different copper medication we are talking about?

there's two kinds of copper, chelated and Ionic. Ionic is a lot more potent than chelated so it takes a much lower dose to do the same job as chelated. Cupramine is ionic copper, copper power (which is what i'm using) is chelated. So while Ionic copper has a therapeutic level of .5ppm, chelated is around 1.5-2.5 depending on the product.

reason people use chelated is because most wrasses and some angels (as well as other fish) are very sensitive to ionic.

you can read more about it here, on humblefish's thread

Copper treatment

Copper treatment What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum). There is some anecdotal evidence that copper will suppress symptoms of Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum; however it is unlikely to completely eradicate either. How...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Biff0rz]

I'm glad my post helped in some way. It ended up NOT being velvet - wrasse made it, blue did not. I reused a tank where a heater had exploded and leached toxins, it was slowly killing both fish.

For you, I'd go right to 2.0 if not 2.25 right away as others have mentioned. Esp with an Achilles.

 

[Fishyfish22]

I'm glad my post helped in some way. It ended up NOT being velvet - wrasse made it, blue did not. I reused a tank where a heater had exploded and leached toxins, it was slowly killing both fish.

For you, I'd go right to 2.0 if not 2.25 right away as others have mentioned. Esp with an Achilles.

there's a Gem in the QT as well. so the costs scare me. My fear is raisin the copper to fast and possibly hurting the gem. the scary alternative is not raising it and losing the achilles.

So in a single dose I should ramp it to 2? or should I do it over the course of 24-48 hours?

 

[jaganshi066]

there's two kinds of copper, chelated and Ionic. Ionic is a lot more potent than chelated so it takes a much lower dose to do the same job as chelated. Cupramine is ionic copper, copper power (which is what i'm using) is chelated. So while Ionic copper has a therapeutic level of .5ppm, chelated is around 1.5-2.5 depending on the product.

reason people use chelated is because most wrasses and some angels (as well as other fish) are very sensitive to ionic.

you can read more about it here, on humblefish's thread

Copper treatment

Copper treatment What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum). There is some anecdotal evidence that copper will suppress symptoms of Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum; however it is unlikely to completely eradicate either. How...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you so much for the reply! I know I started to qt all my fish and which is weird is I was always worried about my multicolor and flameback Angel but they made it through better than all my other fish. I bought a goby and sixline and McCosker and they all seem to be fine with 0.5ppm of cupramine which I brought up slowly. I was so worried using copper but now I’m happy I made the decision to start quarantining all my fish

 

[CivicS14]

there's a Gem in the QT as well. so the costs scare me. My fear is raisin the copper to fast and possibly hurting the gem. the scary alternative is not raising it and losing the achilles.

So in a single dose I should ramp it to 2? or should I do it over the course of 24-48 hours?

My personal experience - tangs aren’t overly sensitive to copper, especially copper power. The wrasse is a different story. Remember the white spots of velvet is the aftermath of velvet, so while it may seem he’s in a “safe zone” with no visible signs, it could be the opposite.

again, personal experience and opinion, if you’re using copper power take it up asap.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

goal is to get copper from 1 to 1.5 over 48 hours (4 doses), or should I aim for faster/higher?

My reason for thinking velvet was the flashing and swimming into the current nonstop.

Rest of the fish in the QT are tangs (Including a PBT, which is supposedly as sensitive to Ich and velvet as the Achilles yet hasn't showed anything), a potters wrasse (which is swimming, eating, and active), and a yellowtail damsel (survivor of the last velvet outbreak who had already through a QT treatment) no aggression.

ammonia is zero per API test kit, I've had hesitations with API in the past so if there's a better test kit I'll gladly switch over.

I gave the Achilles a 5 minute freshwater dip followed by an acriflavine (ruby reef rally pro) bath for 80 minutes with constant monitoring. It was in a 5 gallon bucket with 15mL of rally pro, air stone, and heater. Pulled through great, never laid on its side and swam around in the bucket the whole time which was my biggest worry.

Afterwards I added him back to the QT tank and while he's swimming into the powerhead a little, it's nowhere near as frequent as last time. He's swimming around the tank now, and is at least looking at the food when I feed. The rest of the fish are all eating and active.

The plan, for now at least, is to raise copper to 1.5 and then 2.5 over the week with rally baths to whoever needs them during the process. from there they will be in the tank for 14 days before moving to a 10 gallon for a day while the 75 gallon tank is sterilized and rebooted for the next steps. I'm currently feeding pellets, mysis, and Nori. all are soaked in Seachem garclic guard.

What else should I be doing? and what comes next? Should I be adding any Kanaplex, focus, or prazipro to the food before feeding?

Sorry - lots of activity on this thread while I was asleep. Velvet can kill the fish in 24 hours. Therefore taking 48 hours to raise the copper level is a huge mistake. If it is indeed velvet, you need to get to a full, accurate copper dose withing a couple of hours. Even with ich, (like the purple tang has in the picture, that isn't velvet) taking too long raising the copper puts you on the defensive and it becomes much more difficult to treat.

jay

 

[Fishyfish22]

Sorry - lots of activity on this thread while I was asleep. Velvet can kill the fish in 24 hours. Therefore taking 48 hours to raise the copper level is a huge mistake. If it is indeed velvet, you need to get to a full, accurate copper dose withing a couple of hours. Even with ich, (like the purple tang has in the picture, that isn't velvet) taking too long raising the copper puts you on the defensive and it becomes much more difficult to treat.

jay

Gotcha. I'll start ramping it up immediately then, to what level should I raise the copper? I can do it over 4 doses every 4-6 hours