New Additions Dying At High Rate In Mature System

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Contact seller let him know just FYI
Seller stated no issues son his end. Marine collectors is known for their qt fish. They have fish that cost more than most people's cars, and currently have a species of anthias not found anywhere else in the US. Just trying to highlight who this vendor is vs a LFS.
 
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Thoughts on dosing metro using focus for a bacterial issue? Btw the system is a mainly sps system with inverts and some lps. Seems like metro is reef safe when used with focus.
 

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I wouldn’t drip acclimate fish that had long shipping times. Rapid ph change when you open bag results in ammonia toxicity.


also if the salinity was lower than yours, and it likely was, this puts additional stress on a fish that already has its gills burned.

or, since existing fish are dying you may have some un noticed aggression going on at night. Or, you have an infectious disease but I’m not sure which one. No clear signs of Ich velvet or flukes based on your description.
 
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I wouldn’t drip acclimate fish that had long shipping times. Rapid ph change when you open bag results in ammonia toxicity.


also if the salinity was lower than yours, and it likely was, this puts additional stress on a fish that already has its gills burned.

or, since existing fish are dying you may have some un noticed aggression going on at night. Or, you have an infectious disease but I’m not sure which one. No clear signs of Ich velvet or flukes based on your description.
So I'll throw this out, I didn't think it was a issue but you mentioned ph. I have a cyano bloom going on causing my pH to range from 8.0 - 8.3 to 8.3-8.6. could this be increasing the stress from acclimation?
 

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Take a look at Aquabiomics and use their "Test for Fish Diseases". It does take several weeks to get the results, but it's great info about your tank. I have had issues like you are describing and Aquabiomics has been very helpful. Unless there are specific signs that experts (and experienced hobbyists) can recognize, we are just guessing. Aquabiomics takes the guesswork out of the equation. I'm not associated with them in any way. I'm a believer in the services they provide. @AquaBiomics

Good Luck to you in your quest for answers!
---Frank
 

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So I'll throw this out, I didn't think it was a issue but you mentioned ph. I have a cyano bloom going on causing my pH to range from 8.0 - 8.3 to 8.3-8.6. could this be increasing the stress from acclimation?
Yes higher pH means more NH3 compared to NH4+ so this would make the shock/toxicity even worse
 
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Yes higher pH means more NH3 compared to NH4+ so this would make the shock/toxicity even worse
I wonder if this along with a 2 hour acclimation is the culprit. Just not sure why I lost 2 of my og fish, unless it was just a coincidence as they were "older". I think I'm going get the cyano gone, and once back to my normal pH ranges I'll try another batch of fish and see what happens.
 

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Yes higher pH means more NH3 compared to NH4+ so this would make the shock/toxicity even worse
But would not explain why your existing fish died. Next time make sure salinity is same or lower in new fish and
I wonder if this along with a 2 hour acclimation is the culprit. Just not sure why I lost 2 of my og fish, unless it was just a coincidence as they were "older". I think I'm going get the cyano gone, and once back to my normal pH ranges I'll try another batch of fish and see what happens.
Its much easier for fish to go down in salinity than up. Make sure new fish are same or lower salinity, or no more than 0.001 sg different. Then temp acclimate and drop in new water. Fish long transit times should not be drip acclimated IMO. Yes I’m not sure why OG dying. Suspicious for aggression if your confident on your sources QT techniques.
 

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No I'm not, that's the reason I'm buying from Elliot. They are fully qt fish with meds. I wouldn't want to qt them again.
Oh, Elliot's wrasses. I also had super bad luck with wrasses from him. From my chat with him, he did aggressive TTM and dipping with wrasses. Most wrasses I got were super stressed when arrived. He's not the only one I buy wrasses online from. But his were visibly more stressed. My guess is from the aggressive handling of his. The shipping trauma was the last straw.
 

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BTW, humblefish is banned from this forum over a year ago. If you want his opinion, head over to humble.fish/community/ instead

Actually, he wasn't banned. He left on his own accord. He was last here on 9/10/21, but he no longer posts.

Jay Hemdal
 

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Hello,

I am at a loss, with no idea on what could be going on other than the fact my source for fish Marine Collectors just had a bad batch of fish, or they introduced something to my system.

System 3 years old now 120gal. Last fish was added 2 year and 8 months ago. I decided to add a few more couple months ago and that's where things went bad.

First order flasher , possum and coris. Flasher came in not swimming just laying on side. Coris came in well. After acclimation they went into a box to check for any aggression. No issues after 2 days so I let them both lose. The flasher still wouldn't swim. Few hours later the flasher was on its side breathing heavy then die. The coris took for the sand. Next day the coris was on the sand breathing heavy then died. Possum is doing well and still with me.

1 week later my 3yr old potters wrasse I came home to on the sand breathing fast then died 2-3 hours later.

1.5-2 weeks later my 3+ year old male earmuff wrasse turned up dead on Monday.

New shipment, rhomboid, choati and flasher. Next day choati was floating dead. Rhomboid and flasher still doing well, both swimming and eating well. 2 days later flasher not coming out of the cave, laying on ground but breathing normal. Next day flasher is on sand breathing fast and dead within 2 hours.

Possum and rhomboid are still doing good, swimming and eating.

Other fish in the system:
3 yr Male yellow tail - doing fine
3 yr Ccb- doing fine
3yr fox face - doing fine
6y black cap basket - doing fine.

What am I missing? I have not seen any aggression from any of the og's to be fish and none of the og's are aggressive to each other. Pictures below are from the most recent flasher that died an hour ago. No CUC has gotten to this fish btw.

Also I still have this fish Incase @Jay Hemdal needs me to inspect further.

IMG_20211023_100851_01.jpg PXL_20211023_142815925.jpg PXL_20211023_142819911.jpg


I'm SO sorry - I'm just seeing this now, I must have missed your tagging me.

When did the last death occur?

Other than the issue mostly involving wrasses, there isn't much commonality. It may be that these fish didn't all die from the same issue, and that really confuses matters.

The early deaths after arrival were most likely shipping stress, possibly combined with some underlying issue.
Uronema is common in yellow coris.
There is a weird issue with smaller wrasses - they do fine but then die 1 to 3 weeks after importation. I'm not sure if it is a virus or internal nematodes. However, those symptoms are different; no rapid breathing, and the fish may still try to eat, they just can't swim well.

The possum wrasse is a very different genus of wrasse, but I cannot explain why the rhomboid is unaffected. Flukes or Velvet are the two common causes for rapid breathing, but more fish would be affected.

Jay
 

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IMO you’re spending lots of $$ for pre-QT source. Easier to setup a 10 or 20g tank for the same price you can go hand select fish and put them through copper/metro/prazi and also acclimate them to feeding and water at the same time in a peaceful environment. I don’t trust any of these big volume QT vendors. Who knows what’s actually going on there behind the scenes. At your LFS you can find a nice healthy animal. QT isn’t that hard and it’s good for the animals and rewarding as the owner. It will also help troubleshoot problems. But, it’s not for everyone.
 

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I would never drip a shipped fish for two hours. Not only because of ammonia and pH changes but wrasse are notoriously stressed easily and that’s extra time sitting in a bag spooked.

Is the salinity they are shipped at that different from your tank? If so then I would put them in a natural looking, cycled, quiet observation tank with ambient lighting and bring them up over a few days from there.
 
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Oh, Elliot's wrasses. I also had super bad luck with wrasses from him. From my chat with him, he did aggressive TTM and dipping with wrasses. Most wrasses I got were super stressed when arrived. He's not the only one I buy wrasses online from. But his were visibly more stressed. My guess is from the aggressive handling of his. The shipping trauma was the last straw.
Well that is making me feel a little better. It just doesn't explain the two deaths I had with my OG wrasses. Maybe it was just their time big coincidence though. The Potter's wrasse was with me for 3 years and was a rather large mature female, the ear muff wrasse was about 6 to 7 in full blown male.
 
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I'm SO sorry - I'm just seeing this now, I must have missed your tagging me.

When did the last death occur?

Other than the issue mostly involving wrasses, there isn't much commonality. It may be that these fish didn't all die from the same issue, and that really confuses matters.

The early deaths after arrival were most likely shipping stress, possibly combined with some underlying issue.
Uronema is common in yellow coris.
There is a weird issue with smaller wrasses - they do fine but then die 1 to 3 weeks after importation. I'm not sure if it is a virus or internal nematodes. However, those symptoms are different; no rapid breathing, and the fish may still try to eat, they just can't swim well.

The possum wrasse is a very different genus of wrasse, but I cannot explain why the rhomboid is unaffected. Flukes or Velvet are the two common causes for rapid breathing, but more fish would be affected.

Jay
The last fish died on Saturday. That particular fish arrived on Wednesday. My office is in the same room as the tank so I get to look at it throughout the day. I just don't see anything that's concerning to be aggression to lead to deaths.

My current plan of action is to rid the cyanobacteria using chemiclean which I have never used before because I don't like using chemicals. This should help my pH return back to a normal range. Then I'm going to place an order for all new fish through a different vendor. I'll cut down the acclimation time to no more than an hour hour and keep some prime on hand. Meanwhile I'll be keeping a close eye on my og's and the new fish.
 
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IMO you’re spending lots of $$ for pre-QT source. Easier to setup a 10 or 20g tank for the same price you can go hand select fish and put them through copper/metro/prazi and also acclimate them to feeding and water at the same time in a peaceful environment. I don’t trust any of these big volume QT vendors. Who knows what’s actually going on there behind the scenes. At your LFS you can find a nice healthy animal. QT isn’t that hard and it’s good for the animals and rewarding as the owner. It will also help troubleshoot problems. But, it’s not for everyone.
So I used qt my fish and do what you stated above. Infact I have 5 qt tanks and the full set ups in the attic. Difference now is I just don't have the time. It was easy when I did have a child but now with a 14 month old running around and needing care as my wife and I both have careers, it's just not possible. I broke down a frag tank to give me some time back in the week. I used to run ttm, prazi, copper only if a fish came in really bad shape. Also with internal meds with focus binding.
 
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I would never drip a shipped fish for two hours. Not only because of ammonia and pH changes but wrasse are notoriously stressed easily and that’s extra time sitting in a bag spooked.

Is the salinity they are shipped at that different from your tank? If so then I would put them in a natural looking, cycled, quiet observation tank with ambient lighting and bring them up over a few days from there.
My salinity is 1.025, I never tested the shipping tbh, never have.
 

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The last fish died on Saturday. That particular fish arrived on Wednesday. My office is in the same room as the tank so I get to look at it throughout the day. I just don't see anything that's concerning to be aggression to lead to deaths.

My current plan of action is to rid the cyanobacteria using chemiclean which I have never used before because I don't like using chemicals. This should help my pH return back to a normal range. Then I'm going to place an order for all new fish through a different vendor. I'll cut down the acclimation time to no more than an hour hour and keep some prime on hand. Meanwhile I'll be keeping a close eye on my og's and the new fish.
One thing to be aware of (if you're not already). Fish can handle a drop in salinity very well, but any rise is super stressful. There is a huge issue right now with vendors holding fish at lower salinity, a specific gravity of say, 1.019 (less salt costs for them, may help reduce ich issues) but then, people try to acclimate them up to a reef type specific gravity of 1.025 or so. This much of a rise should not be done in one day - you need to set up a tank with the same salinity as the fish are shipped in, acclimate the new fish to that, and then raise the salinity over three or four days.

Jay
 

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My salinity is 1.025, I never tested the shipping tbh, never have.

Besides ammonia, of they ship at a lower salinity. Two hours may not be enough. Always test the bag. I had a vender accidently ship me fish at 1.006 because the guy doing the bagging forgot the RO on overnight in the shipping water container.

I immediately set up a QT tank at 1.009 and brought the salinity up over a number of weeks and 1 of the 2 fish lived and is still with me. The one that died had buoyancy issues (was a radiant wrasse) and the survivor is my copperband butterfly.

Obviously if dripping shipped fish can be harmful d/t ammonia and pH changes and sometimes extended time is needed for acclimation to higher salinities... this is where an observation tank/holding tank comes in. You can keep RODI and saltwater on hand to get the match perfectly to the bag. This way you won't be in a situation where you need an extended drip d/t differences in salinity vs ammonia burn from dripping too long.
 
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