nldemo
Active Member
Not easy to link to since it's an ebay product, but i think the bags most of us are buying look like this.
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New sulfur denitrator working great!
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jasonrusso
2500 Club Member
Cool, I'll order a bag tonight. The original caribsea ones aren't available anymore. These seem to be the same thing.
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nldemo
Active Member
I think they'are as close as we're going to get... Pretty sure the caribsea were 99.9%.
Personally I have been having issues with my sulfur getting a little nasty every few months and having to rinse or replace it. I'm wondering if that is from that last 1%. Anybody else having this issue? That said, nitrates are still removing just fine.
jasonrusso
2500 Club Member
I just cleaned mine a couple of months ago. It was really clogged with the red sludge/bacteria and wasn't working well. I don't think I had much internal flow. I used the rest of the sulfur I had at that point.
How do you clean yours? I made a mess and lost a lot material. I basically dumped it in a bucket and kept flooding it.
nldemo
Active Member
i have heard people talk to their sulfur, and tell it if it does not stay good and clean they will give it the hose ... ;Joyful
...that said I usually don't have the patience and end up dumping it and replacing with new. lol
i believe a lot of the "sludge" is created in the reactor from bacteria dying off. The theory is that when there was a whole lotta nitrates, it seeds a giant population of bacteria to eat the nitrates. Then when the nitrates are gone, the bacteria start to starve and you get die off. That forms the greyish clumpy stuff you see in there. That is my thoughts, so I'm trying with waaay less sulfur this time. We'll see how long it lasts for me.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
What is the emergency for removing safely stored nitrogen using a denitrator?
Stop adding pH boost!!!!
It seems your tank water is not buffered very well.
pH boost? Works with buffers and alkalinity products to increase pH to desirable 8,3, 8.4 or 8.5 levels without increasing alkalinity itself (in marine aquariums that have a proper alkalinity of 7.7 to 10 dKH)
What If the tank is not buffered?!!!!
Depending on the nitrate export rate a sulfur denitrator produces acids which should be removed ( used, neutralized) before the effluent is drained into the tank. Is the effluent water aerated to expel gases as N2 ,CO2, H2S, before the reactor water enters the tank? Is the reactor effluent pH measured before or after degassing?
How much nitrate the denitrator exports daily? How much is the difference between influent and effluent nitrate content? Is the target effluent nitrate content O nitrate? What is the daily flow? What is the total system volume?
How much sulfur and calcium carbonate media has been used.? What is the ratio of sulfur/ carbonate? Is the media mixed or not?
Normally at least 1% sulfur media should be used, 1l sulfur + 1 liter calcium carbonate = 2l media for a 100 l aquarium. As calcium carbonate is used up a lot faster as sulfur precautions must be taken certainly at very high nitrate export rates ( high nitrate level )
What happens when the denitrator is removed?
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Let's be sure we understand what pH boost is (Brightwell does not understand their own product). It is a high pH alkalinity supplement.
It is hydroxide, Just like kalkwasser or my DIY using sodium hydroxide.
No product can do what they claim.
That said, IMO, hydroxide is a perfectly fine product to offset the low pH and alkalinity depletion of a sulfur denitrator.
Arego
Well-Known Member
60-80ppm, sometimes higher. I tuned the reactor to keep the tank around 15-20. I run my tank hot with nutrients, I could easily turn it down more but I like a high buffer of nutrients personally.
saje2haha
New Member
Hi i am new to this. From my simple understanding of what you are saying, to reduce nitrate one can simply use bades either with or without a reactor. No need to limit the flow to create low oxygen environment for the bacteria to work is it correct? I am trying to understand here. Few question; 1. The nitrate eating bacteria (td) can presence on sulphur media even there is too much oxygen passing thru? As you said anoxic is not required correct? So if i put a bag of sulfur media in the sump it should work alright?
2. if i put the media in any enclosed media reactor without the circultion pump will it create a deadspot thus in somewhere in the reactor there is no flow pasaing through thus make the td bacteria eat the sulphur creating hydrogen sulphide?
3. Should i put the sulphur media in a pail with water from my tank? Just to seed the media first for 2-3days before put it online?
4. Can i run bades sytem in a reactor with normal media reactor(no circ pump) and having a flow rate 30L/h?
Thank you and appreciated if you answer it.
nldemo
Active Member
The circulation pump is important so that the media has more passes of the water , more chances to gobble up the nitrate. I'm sure the same concept would work without it just with a fraction of the same chemical trade off.
As for seeding the media, there is no need. It will automatically seed in your tank after a couple weeks.
jasonrusso
2500 Club Member
Exactly. If you recirculate the volume 10x in the reactor, you would need to have a noncirculating reactor with 10x the media.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
Removing nitrate is never an emergency.
Nitrate is safely stored usable nitrogen.
1. Anoxic is an environment where <0.5 ppm free oxygen is present, anaerobic is a condition in which bacteria are not using free oxygen . Some bacteria may use an anaerobic pathway in normal marine conditions. T.d. is able to switch between an anaerobic and aerobic pathway, depending of BOD in the environment where they are active. The conditions are created naturally, by the growth rate, the demand for oxygen ( BOD)
If you put a bag of sulfur in the sump it will work. see BADES columns. Such a filter is a also a very effective remineralization filter . Basic rules have to be followed.
2. No, not correct.
In the case the complete reactor is made anoxic. In such conditions all nitrate is used up fast and most T.d will die. In anoxic conditions no nitrate production is possible. The biowaste will be reminerelized anaerobically using sulphate as an oxygen source, this way producing HS . This is done by hetertrophs, not T.d., which are autotrophs. Seawater contains a lot of sulfate.
T.d. is able to use elemental sulfur only when using nitrate. T.d. also are able to transform HS back to sulfate and or S, but also only when using nitrate. ref: MB Thiobacillus denitrificans CMF De Haes 2016
The same may happen when 0 nitrate in the effluent is a target. Al nitrate present in the reactor may be used up due to limiting the flow without knowing. This is why it is not advised.
3 NO! Not needed. To form the biofilm, my opinion it is best this is done in the circumstances where it will be used. It will take at least about 3 weeks for a balanced biofilm to form on the media. It is better to use at least 2 BADES columns for easy maintenance.
Mixing the sulfur with calcium carbonate media may buffer the system. Calcium is produced.
4. Yes, you can, if the reactor is big enough!! This would be suitable for a 720liter system and keeping the nitrate level equal to the daily nitrate overproduction, using at least 1% sulfur( 7.2 liter) You need a normal circulation pump
and a regulator valve ( bypass) to manage the flow. see BADES biofilm reactor. A BADES reactor, managed following the MAAO directions, also will be able to do this. Using this application of BADES one also can use a normal circulation pump.
Once the BADES reactor has found its balance at a certain nitrate level, it becomes self regulating, when the level descends, less nitrate is removed and the level will rise. When the level rises more nitrate is removed. Only when the reactor is big enough.
If elemental sulfur is added anywhere where a nitrifying biofilm may or can grow on it, BADES will remove nitrate.
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Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
Too much oxygen? How much?
It's all about the oxygen consumption (BOD, Biological Oxygen Demand) at that specific spot where the action takes place. Bacteria grow at a logarithmic rate (doubling), they die at a logarithmic rate, the oxygen demand can double in an instant, much faster than it can be supplied. BOD is an important growth regulating factor.
In a biofilm, everything is connected through distribution channels. On the outside, a high rate of remineralization (and nitrification) is responsible for a high BOD. The availability of free oxygen in the channels depends on the water exchange rate and BOD. In these conditions, T.d. thrive if enough sulfur compounds are available, as they can quickly switch between available oxygen sources. This is in contrast to heterotrophic denitrifying bacteria, which only have an anaerobic metabolism and do not thrive in an environment in which free oxygen is still present.
A BADES based reactor works fine still having 2ppm dissolved oxygen in the effluent! ref: MB het MAAO CMF De Haes 2017
In the biofilm the amount of free oxygen in the distribution channels is always limited, regardless of the amount of oxygen present in the surrounding water. In a normal marine nitrifying biofilm, +- 40% of the population uses an anaerobic metabolism. ref: MB De biofilm CMF de Haes 2016
Adding elemental sulfur as a substrate for the growing nitrifying biofilm, the normal autotrophic dentrification capacity wil be increased drasticcally and may reach +80% of the by the biofilter produced nitrate using BADES columns
Comparative tests in laboratories are often performed under conditions where the oxygen content is artificially lowered by the creation of a vacuum and not by BOD , hence the large discrepancy between published results.
It's all about the oxygen consumption (BOD, Biological Oxygen Demand) at that specific spot where the action takes place. Bacteria grow at a logarithmic rate (doubling), they die at a logarithmic rate, the oxygen demand can double in an instant, much faster than it can be supplied. BOD is an important growth regulating factor.
In a biofilm, everything is connected through distribution channels. On the outside, a high rate of remineralization (and nitrification) is responsible for a high BOD. The availability of free oxygen in the channels depends on the water exchange rate and BOD. In these conditions, T.d. thrive if enough sulfur compounds are available, as they can quickly switch between available oxygen sources. This is in contrast to heterotrophic denitrifying bacteria, which only have an anaerobic metabolism and do not thrive in an environment in which free oxygen is still present.
A BADES based reactor works fine still having 2ppm dissolved oxygen in the effluent! ref: MB het MAAO CMF De Haes 2017
In the biofilm the amount of free oxygen in the distribution channels is always limited, regardless of the amount of oxygen present in the surrounding water. In a normal marine nitrifying biofilm, +- 40% of the population uses an anaerobic metabolism. ref: MB De biofilm CMF de Haes 2016
Adding elemental sulfur as a substrate for the growing nitrifying biofilm, the normal autotrophic dentrification capacity wil be increased drasticcally and may reach +80% of the by the biofilter produced nitrate using BADES columns
Comparative tests in laboratories are often performed under conditions where the oxygen content is artificially lowered by the creation of a vacuum and not by BOD , hence the large discrepancy between published results.
saje2haha
New Member
Thank you. Always like your elaboration even some of it i might not able to understand .
For answer
1) i am confuse when you say remineralized does it mean hydrogen sulphide produce? So you saying if i put bag of sulphur media in the sump, there is a possibilty for the hydrogen sulphide due to remineralisation?
2) So it is not advisable to use normal media reactor correct? Best is having a circulation pump for the reactor yes?
3) gotcha thanks
4) may i know what happen if i use undersized media? My tank is roughly 500L. And my no3 is 20ppm base on hobby test kit hanna. If i use less amount of sulphur let say 2L for 500L system with 20ppm nitrate is that not sufficient? What will be the effect? Not enough media for td to colonized and consume the no3 ? I am happy if my no3 stay between 1-10ppm. What do you think? 2L of sulphur might be able to bring down no3 from 20ppm to 1-10ppm. If i do 30L/h effluent flow is it enough time for the td to eat the no3? Or the faster rate will not disturb the td but the oxygen inside media is?
Thank you
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
1) Remeneralisation is breaking down biowaste, dead organismns, organic material , back to the basic components. which can be reused for new growth. This is done by heteretrophic bacteria, needing the organic carbon . it is normally done in the presence of free oxygen, one of the end products of aerobic remineralisation is nitrate, due to remineralization produced ammonia is turned into a safe usable nitrogen reserve.Thank you. Always like your elaboration even some of it i might not able to understand .
For answer
1) i am confuse when you say remineralized does it mean hydrogen sulphide produce? So you saying if i put bag of sulphur media in the sump, there is a possibilty for the hydrogen sulphide due to remineralisation?
2) So it is not advisable to use normal media reactor correct? Best is having a circulation pump for the reactor yes?
3) gotcha thanks
4) may i know what happen if i use undersized media? My tank is roughly 500L. And my no3 is 20ppm base on hobby test kit hanna. If i use less amount of sulphur let say 2L for 500L system with 20ppm nitrate is that not sufficient? What will be the effect? Not enough media for td to colonized and consume the no3 ? I am happy if my no3 stay between 1-10ppm. What do you think? 2L of sulphur might be able to bring down no3 from 20ppm to 1-10ppm. If i do 30L/h effluent flow is it enough time for the td to eat the no3? Or the faster rate will not disturb the td but the oxygen inside media is?
Thank you
Anaerobic remineralisation ( dessimilation) takes place only when no dissolved oxygen is available.
1.nitrate is used ( denitrification) 2. ironoxyde is used 3.Manganese dioxyde is used 4. Sulfate is used 5. Methanogenesis . The sequence of the processes used is determined by the energy balance , the availability and the circumstances. Compared to the use of nitrate , the energy balance using sulfate is very low. ref: MB remineralisatie CMF De Haes 2019
Because in a marine aquarium a lot of sulfate is available, most anaerobic remineralization taking place is using sulfate, producing HS. That is why I try to prevent a BADES reactor is kept anoxic. For the BADES process to take place such conditions are not needed.
There is no direct connection between elemental sulfur media and HS production. HS production due to sulfate reduction takes place in anoxic zones.
if you put a bag of coral sand in your sump and that bag is too thick, anoxic zones may be created in the bag and HS may be produced due to sulfate reduction.
Using BADES the risk for sulfate reduction is higher because most nitrate will have been used for the BADES proces and not be available for anaerobic remineralization. This is why BADES rolls may NOT be too thick, to avoid anoxic zones are created, but meanly because such zones are not needed. This is why the effluent of a BADES reactor still may maintain +-2 ppm DO.
For example, sprinkling sulfur beats on an existing deep sand bed can cause sulphate reduction within the sandbed due to BADES is exporting available nitrate.
In normal aquarium conditions anaerobic remineralization will take place everywhere a biofilm may grow. The presence of nitrate prevents sulfate reduction. In normal conditions a biofilm produces nitrate.
In most normal aerobic biofilms sulfate reduction will take place, it is normal some HS is produced, it normally is used by sulfur bacteria by which H2S is turned back into sulfate or and elemental sulfur. In most cases T.d. is responsible for removing HS, while exporting nitrate. This also happens in BADES columns. HS produced inside the columns will try to escape but on its journey to the outside it passes through layers where nitrate is present and where T.d. can do its job and will use the nitrate to eat the produced HS.
In an anoxic sulfur denitrator the situation is completely different because the transition zone is very small, the autotrophs will have to compete with the heterotrophs for available nitrate. This is why a target of 0 nitrate in the reactor effluent is not advised, to prevent all nitrate is used up without knowing.
2) One may use a normal reactor as promoted for normal biofilters. Any seawater safe recipient will do. If it has a lit, it is a reactor. A normal circulation pump can be used. The flow is managed by installing a bypass. If flow is high produced gasses will leave the reactor via the effluent. The effluent must always be aerated before entering the system.
Also, I prefere to use BADES columns in a refuge, by which the flow rate is made manageable in function of the filtration rate.
4) I am sorry, I will not answer personal questions on the forum, all the necessary information is available and has already been covered.
To answer the question an estimate of the daily nitrate overproduction is needed.
All info needed is made available in the references already posted. Any quantity of sulfur will export some nitrate.
Using a too small reactor , when the level descends the moment will come the daily nitrate overproduction can not be removed any more. This is a critical situation when using an anoxic sulfur denitrator. Using a BADES reactor also this moment will come but at a lower nitrate level. Some will decrease the flow in an attempt to increase the total nitrate removal capacity ( increase the anoxic zone). Do not make that error! One can not remove what is not entered.
To be able to mange the nitrogen export rate in combination with the nitrate level basic rules have to be followed, the reactor must be big enough, and the flow rate must be manageable in function of the nitrate removal rate. In the case of BADES columns, they have to be used in a sump for making the nitrate removal rate manageable as desired.
T.d. do not eat nitrate, they use nitrate for respiration when using their anaerobic pathway, they eat sulfur.
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saje2haha
New Member
Thank you appreciate your answer. So i guess i can dump a bag of sulphur beads in the sump. Lot of people are afraid of hydrogen sulphide as it is toxic/flammable. I read somewhere that probioctic bacteria do reduce the toxic of HS. What is the worst thing can happen if somebody reactor creating the foul smell? I havent heard someone had incident regarding this HS for this hobby yet.
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