New to LEDs - PAR question on Hydra 52

[Kj2186]

You have some great looking corals!

I’m kind of surprised your par is that low. I have 2 52hds 16” above the water on my 24” cube at 100 watts each producing 450-550 par at the top of my rocks and 350 on the sand.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Most people choose to upgrade before the units break down due to "old age" or "end of life." Of course, every manufacturer has a few units that quit just out of warranty - they all seem to be equal here and each has a section of haters because of it. I would just ignore most of these and it seems that EcoTech/AI (same company), Kessil, RB, etc. all are pretty good in the end.

The T5 suggestions come with colonies not frags - I mean like real colonies and not teen moms with a few branches (like 6-24 inches where you cannot count the branches anymore). Most people who don't get this do not yet have colonies shading each other... or they have a massive amount of panels over their tanks. It does not matter with frags since frags don't cast much of a shadow. In my 8' tank, I would need two rows of panels front and back to eliminate the shadows from my colonies... so probably 12-16 Hydra 52s. While this can work, a few T5s look pretty good when you see that bill come due.

This colony is larger than a single Hydra 52. What do you do when you get here?


Here is was a few months ago... these things will grow fast when you get good at this, so have a plan:


You can still have corals below this with enough coverage and no shadowing.

Awesome as usual @jda but there is going to be shading with every light source, the sun included, when colonies get that size, haha. I totally agree that they are not the best option for larger tanks because of the costs required to properly light them. I think they are perfect for smaller to medium size tanks if they are mounted and spaced correctly.

 

[jda]

My whole goal is to keep people in the hobby and happy. Too many people are surprised later on when their smaller wattage/size/coverage LEDs won't do what they want in the future. Look around... you won't people with roughly 120 gallon SPS tank lighting it with only a pair of Hydra 52s although many might have started out this way would have made different choices since many are not happy that their sleek fixtures are now hidden in an AquaticLife. This has nothing to do with hatred or bias at all, just reality of people who were where are are and have gotten to where you want to go... mature SPS tanks, not just year-old tanks with frags or mini-colonies.

I quit using AI and EcoTech LEDs about the time that they merged... Gen 3 and 52 were the last iteration that I had. Had a few Razors. Atlantik v4 was the last one that I had in my home and Photon v2 before that. If I had to choose, v4 would be my choice and then Photon next (panels over pucks for me). I digress. You don't see me trying to talk you out of anything, or saying not to use this or that... just trying to give you an actual idea of what you will be up against once you get into the swing of things again. If you are budgeting a good chunk of change more more lights, then that is all that I want to impress, so good. If you think that you won't need them, then you probably should look again. Would you choose differently now if you knew that you might end up with 4x total Hydra 52s and then still 2 or 4 bulbs of T5? Even if you knew that you might need them later on, would you be Ok without them knowing that your corals could be doing better? These are not horrible things to think about.

For my conclusions, Dr. Joshi summed it up pretty well and I agree with most... no electrical savings... need about 3 Hydra 52s or xr30s to make up for each MH (2 might work in some situations). I will stay away from color and growth things. With 5 years of panel life before people upgrade, bulbs changes are no issue. Might still need a chiller in Florida or the Mojave, but heaters will run more in colder climates where heat is easy to mitigate - push for most people. I am in Colorado, any heat is a blessing, but understand that not everybody is like this. In the end, 24-26 units at $750 every 4-5 years to replace my 8 MH with no electrical savings just is not happening... to maybe do just as good of a job (again, will keep color and growth as an aside)?

Since you do have experience with other types of lighting, let me give you the MH comparison. Remember that you cannot use less wattage and get more lighting - there is no efficiency other than false manufacturer promises and message board posts. Each of those Hydra 52s are going to produce about as much light as a 150w Halide, if you indeed run them at 150w and for the same hours as the 150w halide would run (no ramping and stuff). 150w Halide can do Ok with a SPS tank with mostly MBP&S and a few well-placed acropora, but they also have better coverage (reflectors) at the cost of no programming, color control or thunderstorm (if you are into that stuff). Neither will work well alone if you want acropora all over the place, which is why 250w Halides are used moreso than 150w for SPS tank and people add a xr30 or 52 for every foot. 150w halide is a great mixed reef light for a 24x24 area just like a single Hydra 52 might be.

Regardless of what you think, I am not a hater, just have a lot of experience with all of this. I am not some dogmatic old timer who is against all new things. There are real challenges that you are going to encounter, so if you don't want to hear them, then I can just step away.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

My whole goal is to keep people in the hobby and happy. Too many people are surprised later on when their smaller wattage/size/coverage LEDs won't do what they want in the future. Look around... you won't people with roughly 120 gallon SPS tank lighting it with only a pair of Hydra 52s although many might have started out this way would have made different choices since many are not happy that their sleek fixtures are now hidden in an AquaticLife. This has nothing to do with hatred or bias at all, just reality of people who were where are are and have gotten to where you want to go... mature SPS tanks, not just year-old tanks with frags or mini-colonies.

I quit using AI and EcoTech LEDs about the time that they merged... Gen 3 and 52 were the last iteration that I had. Had a few Razors. Atlantik v4 was the last one that I had in my home and Photon v2 before that. If I had to choose, v4 would be my choice and then Photon next (panels over pucks for me). I digress. You don't see me trying to talk you out of anything, or saying not to use this or that... just trying to give you an actual idea of what you will be up against once you get into the swing of things again. If you are budgeting a good chunk of change more more lights, then that is all that I want to impress, so good. If you think that you won't need them, then you probably should look again. Would you choose differently now if you knew that you might end up with 4x total Hydra 52s and then still 2 or 4 bulbs of T5? Even if you knew that you might need them later on, would you be Ok without them knowing that your corals could be doing better? These are not horrible things to think about.

For my conclusions, Dr. Joshi summed it up pretty well and I agree with most... no electrical savings... need about 3 Hydra 52s or xr30s to make up for each MH (2 might work in some situations). I will stay away from color and growth things. With 5 years of panel life before people upgrade, bulbs changes are no issue. Might still need a chiller in Florida or the Mojave, but heaters will run more in colder climates where heat is easy to mitigate - push for most people. I am in Colorado, any heat is a blessing, but understand that not everybody is like this. In the end, 24-26 units at $750 every 4-5 years to replace my 8 MH with no electrical savings just is not happening... to maybe do just as good of a job (again, will keep color and growth as an aside)?

Since you do have experience with other types of lighting, let me give you the MH comparison. Remember that you cannot use less wattage and get more lighting - there is no efficiency other than false manufacturer promises and message board posts. Each of those Hydra 52s are going to produce about as much light as a 150w Halide, if you indeed run them at 150w and for the same hours as the 150w halide would run (no ramping and stuff). 150w Halide can do Ok with a SPS tank with mostly MBP&S and a few well-placed acropora, but they also have better coverage (reflectors) at the cost of no programming, color control or thunderstorm (if you are into that stuff). Neither will work well alone if you want acropora all over the place, which is why 250w Halides are used moreso than 150w for SPS tank and people add a xr30 or 52 for every foot. 150w halide is a great mixed reef light for a 24x24 area just like a single Hydra 52 might be.

Regardless of what you think, I am not a hater, just have a lot of experience with all of this. I am not some dogmatic old timer who is against all new things. There are real challenges that you are going to encounter, so if you don't want to hear them, then I can just step away.

Each time someone gives an example where leds do work, you just quietly back out, only to pop up in another thread with the same old story. Why? You definitely have great success with corals and t5, but that doesn’t mean you are correct about leds. Others have proven that with their own success. Dismissal of that is just immature.

Having said all that, I’ve been contemplating the t5 hybrid just to experiment some. One limitation of led fixtures is that peak par requires the whites. I like a blue tank, thus have lower par. A hybrid would let the heavy lifting be done with blue spectrum bulbs, essentially turning the led fixture into a fine tuning.

 

[jda]

Where have I ever said that they don't work? Ever? You might be confusing me with somebody else. I don't use T5s, either, so perhaps you mean somebody that does?

I am pretty sure that I am right about the number of units necessary to have a SPS tank with colonies, which was my only real point here.

The whites are fine if you want to use them. Some of the best LED lit tanks use 100% on ALL channels by Therman and Dr. Joshi. Some older fixtures had really bad whites in them that could burn coral, but all of these have been replaced by better diodes probably 6-8 years ago. I would not fear whites in any newer model lights.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Where have I ever said that they don't work? Ever? You might be confusing me with somebody else. I don't use T5s, either, so perhaps you mean somebody that does?

I am pretty sure that I am right about the number of units necessary to have a SPS tank with colonies, which was my only real point here.

The whites are fine if you want to use them. Some of the best LED lit tanks use 100% on ALL channels by Therman and Dr. Joshi. Some older fixtures had really bad whites in them that could burn coral, but all of these have been replaced by better diodes probably 6-8 years ago. I would not fear whites in any newer model lights.

You don’t have to use the words “won’t work” in order to imply it. Every single thread that has to do with leds and Acropora have you in there, dissuading others from using them, and then someone posts a pic of them using only leds. Never get a follow up from you after that.

The poster above also got the message that you don’t like leds. I’m sure everyone here would agree that that is how you come off.

I just assumed you were using t5 since most either use t5 or leds.

I believe white leds work fine, I just don’t like the look of them. Every single piece of brown in my tank shows up with them on

I’ve held off on the t5 hybrid because of the very high cost. The 24in will be $300 with bulbs. Then another $300 or more if you want to control them and don’t already have an Apex. I could just add another led fixture for half of that and save $100 year on bulbs.

 

[road_runner]

LED only, T5 only, MH only, combos of some or all of the above can generate a good looking reef.
In Europe T5 is the king and still is. Some of the best tanks I have seen in my life are with T5 only. Seem incredible tanks with led t5 combo or LED only.

It's all about the spectrum and PAR/PUR...

Also when it come to colors people think it's all about the light...its not...
So many things impact the color from nutrients to major and minor elements...
My 2 cents.

 

[jda]

If you all just want posts that already fit your narrative, then I will leave. At some point, you will get to where I am at with all of this - I can stop trying to get you there sooner.

At least pay attention to Chaswood, who does use a 52 for every foot, just like I said. I guess that he must hate them as well.

 

[road_runner]

The spectrum and PAR on the 52 HD is amazing. I used to have ap700 for couppe of years then switched to 52 HD. Its really good..
I use one on every 24 inch..

 

[LARedstickreefer]

If you all just want posts that already fit your narrative, then I will leave. At some point, you will get to where I am at with all of this - I can stop trying to get you there sooner.

At least pay attention to Chaswood, who does use a 52 for every foot, just like I said. I guess that he must hate them as well.

Whether or not leds make sense over t5, MH, or some combo depends on the tank. Place them high enough for proper coverage and then turn them up to meet par needs. If the light is high enough for proper coverage, but par is too low, add another light. Rinse and repeat.

T5 and MH are no different. A 70w MH isn’t going to cut it over a 200g tank for Acropora. Each light has its own benefits and compromise with none having a clear advantage over the other.

I’ve seen, in person, that leds ( hydras at that) can most definitely support large colonies without the need for obscene numbers of them.

 

[road_runner]

So I’m getting back into the hobby after a 12 year break. In the past I did all 400w MH so LED’s are new to me.

I currently have 2 Hydra 52’s over a 425xl in trying to understand the light output better I rented a PAR meter (MQ 500) from my LFS and I was kinda surprised at the readings so I’m looking for some feed back.

To sum up my questions - I’m getting a reading of about 280 20 inches from the LED’s - I though it would have been higher based on my settings but I’m new to LED’s so maybe this is what is expected? Below are the settings I got the PAR value I mentioned above - I thought it would have been much higher but maybe the distance from the light is the issue?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

not sure if it was said already but, I would advice you increase your peak period to at least 8 hours with sunrise and sundown at 1 to 2 hours each.

 

[road_runner]

Check our jason fox setup..
Heavy use of T5...who can day T5 is not good ha ha