NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

[00W]

Exactly.

Thanks again.

 

[Miami Reef]

Of course!

Good luck! Please report back on how things go.

 

[Borat]

I’m glad you have a method that works for you.

I don’t agree that carbon dosing is ineffective or that it does more harm than good. I also don’t agree that there is a need for any tapering off.

Acetate, or vinegar, is one of the most used organics in the ocean. It’s a very natural process. Corals, sponges, and bacteria can all use it.

People have used carbon dosing for decades. It’s one of the best tools in the hobby. If my nutrients were too low, I would dose ammonium and still carbon dose.

If you use my chart, you will almost certainly lower the nutrients. The old chart that was created was ineffective and a waste of time.

I understand that you now have a refugium, so there’s no need for you to start carbon dosing. I just wanted to show another perspective.

Happy reefing!

I did use your chart (this was very well written piece!) - in the last round, so quite a bit of dosing.. Phosphates dropped like a stone, so I ended up dosing 0.06ppm of phosphates PER DAY, just to keep them from reaching zero! I dosed to this regime for about 3 months. NItrates however did not bulge from a level of about 30ppm-40ppm.

My phosphates spiked to ~0.3ppm after I weaned the tank off carbon dosing - and stayed there for a couple of months.. So I had to temporarily use ROWA. Now I am back to 0.08phosphates level - without any ROWA or carbon dosing.

The reason I started to experiment with carbon dosing was that I had high nitrates due to (i) antibiotic treatment and (ii) reef flux treatment of the tank (so refugium had to be cleared). Normally, my tank's nitrates are 0 (without any carbon dosing)- but it takes long time to rebuild those bacterial colonies and/or get the refugium growing again. I am now back into "normal" mode - where nitrates are already at ~5ppm and I will soon start dosing nitrates to keep them from reaching zero.

So, generally - this method is not for me and if anything I think carbon dosing introduced more instability to my tank than helped. I hope others find it more helpful than it was in my experience.

Best regards,

Borat.

 

[aquadise]

Anyone think about mixing Vinegar, Vodka with ferric citrate to reduce both Nitrate and Phosphate? DSR has a product like that.

DSR EZ-Carbon, PO4/NO3 remover

FREE DELIVERY DSR EZ-Carbon is a directly dosable PO4 / NO3 remover. Nutrition for a healthy bacterial population.

dsrproducts.co.uk

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Anyone think about mixing Vinegar, Vodka with ferric citrate to reduce both Nitrate and Phosphate? DSR has a product like that.

DSR EZ-Carbon, PO4/NO3 remover

FREE DELIVERY DSR EZ-Carbon is a directly dosable PO4 / NO3 remover. Nutrition for a healthy bacterial population.

dsrproducts.co.uk

Seems like a fine plan to me.

 

[Mike Lemming]

@Miami Reef I started dosing 40ml’s of vinegar by hand on Monday night ( November 4th) in my 130g system. On Wednesday, I set it up on a doser for 1.7ml’s every hour to total that 40ml’s. I’ve been testing nitrates and phosphates everyday to see if anything has changed and I’ve gotten a blinking 75 with Hanna every single test. I am happy to report that today, I finally got a reading of 55.7!!! I couldn’t tell you where I started but I can tell you it’s going down! I will continue to dose until it starts getting to where I want them and will ultimately keep a low dose going as the few corals that I do have are looking fantastic! I appreciate all the help and will keep you posted!

 

[Miami Reef]

@Miami Reef I started dosing 40ml’s of vinegar by hand on Monday night ( November 4th) in my 130g system. On Wednesday, I set it up on a doser for 1.7ml’s every hour to total that 40ml’s. I’ve been testing nitrates and phosphates everyday to see if anything has changed and I’ve gotten a blinking 75 with Hanna every single test. I am happy to report that today, I finally got a reading of 55.7!!! I couldn’t tell you where I started but I can tell you it’s going down! I will continue to dose until it starts getting to where I want them and will ultimately keep a low dose going as the few corals that I do have are looking fantastic! I appreciate all the help and will keep you posted!

Congrats! That was nice progress!

 

[Mike Lemming]

Congrats! That was nice progress!

It sure was. It did do a water change last night of 40g so I’m sure that has helped. But before the vinegar, I did 3 40g water changes and was still reading 75 on the Hanna tester. Either way, it’s working!

 

[Mike Lemming]

@Miami Reef My nitrates have stalled out around the 60 mark. I have upped my dose from 30ml's to 40ml's and then yesterday to 60ml's. Is this the right thing to do or am I missing something?

 

[Miami Reef]

@Miami Reef My nitrates have stalled out around the 60 mark. I have upped my dose from 30ml's to 40ml's and then yesterday to 60ml's. Is this the right thing to do or am I missing something?

40mL is the week 1 dose.

The 60mL dose is the correct approach since that’s week 2 for your tank size.

 

[Mike Lemming]

40mL is the week 1 dose.

The 60mL dose is the correct approach since that’s week 2 for your tank size.

Sounds good. I'll continue to test and report back. Thanks!

 

[Miami Reef]

Sounds good. I'll continue to test and report back. Thanks!

Looking forward to it!

 

[Dan_P]

2. Denitrification is a process that happens in anaerobic conditions (little to no oxygen). These bacteria require an organic to oxidize the nitrate molecule (NO3-) into Nitrogen (N2). They use the oxygen that is attached to the nitrate molecule to respire. Thus, there will be NO phosphate consumed during this process.

Here is the equation by @Randy Holmes-Farley :

organic + 124 NO3– + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

How certain are we that carbon dosing to reduce nitrate concentration is a result of anaerobic denitrification rather than aerobic nitrate assimilation, i.e., heterotrophic bacteria obtaining nitrogen from nitrate?

 

[Reefering1]

I thought it was aerobic. "Natural" denitrification, in a dsb or deep within liverock is anaerobic.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How certain are we that carbon dosing to reduce nitrate concentration is a result of anaerobic denitrification rather than aerobic nitrate assimilation, i.e., heterotrophic bacteria obtaining nitrogen from nitrate?

Im not sure we know how much denitrification happens in any reef tank.

 

[Dan_P]

Im not sure we know how much denitrification happens in any reef tank.

Thanks for that perspective. Just started a carbon dosing study and initial results don’t support an anaerobic denitrification pathway, at least not for my aquarium water. Early days though. Plenty of time to get even weirder results

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for that perspective. Just started a carbon dosing study and initial results don’t support an anaerobic denitrification pathway, at least not for my aquarium water. Early days though. Plenty of time to get even weirder results

How would you distinguish them?

 

[Dan_P]

How would you distinguish them?

Here is what I have so far.

Dosing vinegar (rate is 1 ml per gallon or 13 ppm acetic acid) to a sample of aquarium water (30 mL sample in a 50 mL capped centrifuge tube on an orbital shaker, light excluded) containing nitrate results in the reduction of nitrate within 24 hours but no further change at 48 hours.

In the next screening experiment, reducing the head space from 20 mL to 5 mL and 1 mL generates 240 and 450 ppb N-NO2, respectively (not enough sample to kill nitrite and measure nitrate. Next time though). The amount of nitrite nitrogen is roughly the same amount as the reduction in nitrate nitrogen when sufficient oxygen is available, but needs to be confirmed. Nothing happens in the aquarium water control. The other control with vinegar added and 20 mL of headspace, the expected nitrate concentration reduction occurred. Neither control generated nitrite.

My initial thought is that incomplete removal of nitrate could be a lack of oxygen for an aerobic hprocess or depletion of acetic acid to complete an anaerobic process, though the trend in nitrite and headspace makes me think it is the former. I am repeating these experiments with no headspace and will get nitrite and nitrate numbers this time.

What do you think?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here is what I have so far.

Dosing vinegar (rate is 1 ml per gallon or 13 ppm acetic acid) to a sample of aquarium water (30 mL sample in a 50 mL capped centrifuge tube on an orbital shaker, light excluded) containing nitrate results in the reduction of nitrate within 24 hours but no further change at 48 hours.

In the next screening experiment, reducing the head space from 20 mL to 5 mL and 1 mL generates 240 and 450 ppb N-NO2, respectively (not enough sample to kill nitrite and measure nitrate. Next time though). The amount of nitrite nitrogen is roughly the same amount as the reduction in nitrate nitrogen when sufficient oxygen is available, but needs to be confirmed. Nothing happens in the aquarium water control. The other control with vinegar added and 20 mL of headspace, the expected nitrate concentration reduction occurred. Neither control generated nitrite.

My initial thought is that incomplete removal of nitrate could be a lack of oxygen for an aerobic hprocess or depletion of acetic acid to complete an anaerobic process, though the trend in nitrite and headspace makes me think it is the former. I am repeating these experiments with no headspace and will get nitrite and nitrate numbers this time.

What do you think?

I’m not sure a random water sample would be expected to contain much of the types of bacteria that would typically inhabit sediments and that would be expected to denitrify.

 

[Dan_P]

I’m not sure a random water sample would be expected to contain much of the types of bacteria that would typically inhabit sediments and that would be expected to denitrify.

We are in full agreement on this.

The point is that reducing nitrate concentration might not be denitrification but nitrate assimilation if it happens in the water column. Obviously, extraordinary claims will need extraordinary data