NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

[Miami Reef]

Only some of the Acro's - tabling type.

Probably need to do another ICP just to be sure.

I've always tried to avoid chasing numbers, but thought i would try reducing the nitrates to see if it made a difference.

I haven’t seen the ICP result and don’t know which company you used. There may not be a reason to retest it.

You can certainly lower the nitrate to see if there are any changes.

I’d suggest making a new thread to rule out other potential causes of low PE; chemistry is probably one of least common causes of coral issues IMO.

 

[Dan_P]

@Miami Reef
Just out of curiosity, how long does the dosed organic carbon take to be consumed by the bacteria that assimilate the nutrients? Not so much on a fresh start, but after bacteria is established and results are measurable? Example: if I'm dosing 15ml/day of vodka and everything is stable with input, nitrate steady @ 10; and I dose a additional 15ml- how much time before that expected drop happens and is measurable? What's the lag time? (Not sure I'm asking this correctly)

In small scale experiments with aquarium water not recently carbon dosed, there is at least an eight hour lag period when no nitrate reduction is detected, but by twenty four hours the reduction has occurred and stopped. Subsequent doses result in nitrate reduction within 8 hours with no further reduction between eight and twenty four hours. This was observed for both acetic acid and ethanol.

 

[Reefering1]

In small scale experiments with aquarium water not recently carbon dosed, there is at least an eight hour lag period when no nitrate reduction is detected, but by twenty four hours the reduction has occurred and stopped. Subsequent doses result in nitrate reduction within 8 hours with no further reduction between eight and twenty four hours. This was observed for both acetic acid and ethanol.

Thank you sir!!

 

[Dan_P]

Thank you sir!!

You are welcome!

Hopefully more fun facts about organic carbon dosing coming out from the current study.

 

[Goodtimes92]

The reasons I'm updating the Vinegar and Vodka dosing charts are two-fold:

1. The ramp was unnecessarily slow. There was no perceived benefit to such a tedious ramp, and it led to reefers quitting because they thought carbon dosing didn't work.

2. The ramp did not scale up correctly at all. A 40x larger tank only received 2x the needed dose. (A 1,000-gallon tank only received twice the dose of a 25-gallon tank).


Carbon dosing is a fantastic way to lower nutrients, more specifically nitrate. The reason is three-fold:

1. Organisms, such as bacteria, contain much more nitrogen than phosphorous.

2. Denitrification is a process that happens in anaerobic conditions (little to no oxygen). These bacteria require an organic to oxidize the nitrate molecule (NO3-) into Nitrogen (N2). They use the oxygen that is attached to the nitrate molecule to respire. Thus, there will be NO phosphate consumed during this process.

Here is the equation by @Randy Holmes-Farley :

organic + 124 NO3– + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

3.We have an immense reservoir of phosphate bound to calcium carbonate rocks and sand. To put to pespective, a 50% water change with nutrient-free water will successfully reduce your nitrate values by 50%. Phosphates will likely remain unchanged.


For these reasons, I do NOT recommend dosing carbon solely for controlling phosphates. It is likey to completely bottom-out nitrate before seeing phosphate decrease.

What are the benefits of carbon dosing?

Besides reducing nitrate, spurring bacteria is the main benefit. This bacteria can feed many organisms and filter feeders.

What about other carbon sources such as NP Bacto Balance or NOPOX?

You can carbon dose with NP Bacto Balance or NOPOX, but dosing straight vinegar or vodka is inexpensive and readily available in stores.


What kind of vinegar or vodka should I use?

Any food-grade white vinegar is safe to use. White distilled vinegar usually the most pure, cheapest, and easy to find.

For vodka, 80 proof vodka (40% ethanol) is safe to use.

Here are the charts. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

So I have been having issues getting and more so keeping my nitrates down. i have 0 po4 in the tank but nitrates can go from 20 to 70 in 3 weeks. I have tried everything from nopox, bio pellets, bacto balance, and even have a turf scrubber on but they dont seem to come down. Would dosing vodka with no po4 bring them down? If so how do I keep them down?

 

[Miami Reef]

So I have been having issues getting and more so keeping my nitrates down. i have 0 po4 in the tank but nitrates can go from 20 to 70 in 3 weeks. I have tried everything from nopox, bio pellets, bacto balance, and even have a turf scrubber on but they dont seem to come down. Would dosing vodka with no po4 bring them down? If so how do I keep them down?

How are you measuring phosphate? If it is truly 0, dosing some phosphate will help bring nitrate down.

How’s the algae growth in the scrubber?

 

[Goodtimes92]

How are you measuring phosphate? If it is truly 0, dosing some phosphate will help bring nitrate down.

How’s the algae growth in the scrubber?

i have dosed po4 and it does not bring it down. I think i dosed about two gallons of brightwell po4 in roughly two months maybe. the scrubber does produce algae that i have to harvest about every two weeks. and i measure with multiple tests all showing zero

 

[Miami Reef]

i have dosed po4 and it does not bring it down. I think i dosed about two gallons of brightwell po4 in roughly two months maybe. the scrubber does produce algae that i have to harvest about every two weeks. and i measure with multiple tests all showing zero

Are you using the Hanna PO4 test? If so, you should dose even more.

The carbon dosing surely works. You just need enough phosphate, and you need to dose enough of the vinegar/vodka.

Have you tried following my chart? The week 3 dose works very well, especially if you pair it with your algae scrubber and some water changes.

If the above still doesn’t work, then you probably feed too much or have too many fish.

 

[rishma]

I am studying carbon dosing right now and observed that a sample of my aquarium water when dosed with vinegar shows a reduction in nitrate within 24 hours. I was wondering if you are interested in testing a sample of yours the same way? The procedure is simple. I removed 1 liter of aquarium water and added a scaled down dose of vinegar. I tested the water immediately after dosing and twenty four hours later. I can help you scaling down your current aquarium dose for the sample.

I have been thinking about running an experiment. Interested in your thoughts.

The goal would be to develop a mixture of vinegar, ammonium nitrate and trisodium phosphate that is balanced in terms of nutrients added and consumed. Basically, I want to add the same amount of nitrogen and phosphorus that is consumed by the bacteria with addition of vinegar, all in one dose. Here is what I am thinking:

Step 1: determine nitrate and phosphate consumption
Take 1L aquarium water
Measure nitrate and phosphate
Dose a fixed amount of vinegar
Measure nitrate and phosphate 24 hrs later.

Likely repeat this test a few times, and test before and after the 24 hour period.

Step 2: dose the balanced n & p
I would add ammonium bicarbonate and trisodium phosphate to the vinegar so that the dose includes enough equivalent nitrate and phosphate to offset the consumption.

Repeat the tests from step 1. If it works, the nitrate and phosphate will not change.

Reasons this might not work or might not be applicable to the reef tank:

I think ammonia is directly taken up by the corals and algae in the tank, but in the test it would only be bacteria. If I dose the mixture to the tank, the nitrate may decline (maybe phosphate too?) due to their consumption.

Mixing the chemicals might not work? Not sure if there will be reactions or precipitation.

I think the addition of ammonia might result in greater bacterial growth and more phosphate consumption, so phosphate might still go down.

I suppose I could try, then adjust mixture again after step 2.

 

[Goodtimes92]

Are you using the Hanna PO4 test? If so, you should dose even more.

The carbon dosing surely works. You just need enough phosphate, and you need to dose enough of the vinegar/vodka.

Have you tried following my chart? The week 3 dose works very well, especially if you pair it with your algae scrubber and some water changes.

If the above still doesn’t work, then you probably feed too much or have too many fish.

So I have tested with hannah, exaqua, auqua spin. All the same. As far as fish goes i have 2 tangs 2 clowns one wrasse one mandarin and one dotty back. I only feed one cube of mysis everyday or other day and will give a little sheet of nori maybe one lie or twice a week. There are a couple of brittle stars and feelw crabs for clean up and I never notice any debris left from food anywhere. I have not dosed vodka and that's why I was looking into this but wasn't sure if I need to continue dosing po4 or if that really mattered much still. I'm looking at doing the vodka to see if that helps. I've been fighting this for 3 years and I just want to get the tank stable.

 

[Miami Reef]

So I have tested with hannah, exaqua, auqua spin. All the same. As far as fish goes i have 2 tangs 2 clowns one wrasse one mandarin and one dotty back. I only feed one cube of mysis everyday or other day and will give a little sheet of nori maybe one lie or twice a week. There are a couple of brittle stars and feelw crabs for clean up and I never notice any debris left from food anywhere. I have not dosed vodka and that's why I was looking into this but wasn't sure if I need to continue dosing po4 or if that really mattered much still. I'm looking at doing the vodka to see if that helps. I've been fighting this for 3 years and I just want to get the tank stable.

In that case, dose phosphate, even more until you get a reading. At least 0.02ppm.

The vinegar and vodka chart has the same effect of nitrate when following the chart.

Use the scrubber, vinegar/vodka, and maybe some water changes if you can.

That should help.

 

[Dan_P]

I have been thinking about running an experiment. Interested in your thoughts.

The goal would be to develop a mixture of vinegar, ammonium nitrate and trisodium phosphate that is balanced in terms of nutrients added and consumed. Basically, I want to add the same amount of nitrogen and phosphorus that is consumed by the bacteria with addition of vinegar, all in one dose. Here is what I am thinking:

Step 1: determine nitrate and phosphate consumption
Take 1L aquarium water
Measure nitrate and phosphate
Dose a fixed amount of vinegar
Measure nitrate and phosphate 24 hrs later.

Likely repeat this test a few times, and test before and after the 24 hour period.

Step 2: dose the balanced n & p
I would add ammonium bicarbonate and trisodium phosphate to the vinegar so that the dose includes enough equivalent nitrate and phosphate to offset the consumption.

Repeat the tests from step 1. If it works, the nitrate and phosphate will not change.

Reasons this might not work or might not be applicable to the reef tank:

I think ammonia is directly taken up by the corals and algae in the tank, but in the test it would only be bacteria. If I dose the mixture to the tank, the nitrate may decline (maybe phosphate too?) due to their consumption.

Mixing the chemicals might not work? Not sure if there will be reactions or precipitation.

I think the addition of ammonia might result in greater bacterial growth and more phosphate consumption, so phosphate might still go down.

I suppose I could try, then adjust mixture again after step 2.

Interesting!

Are you thinking that by feeding the aquarium bacteria the right food blend, we should see a decline in nitrate and phosphate?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That was sort of my question; what is the goal of using it? generate bacteria as filter feeder food in situ?

The mix should be OK chemically, but also may be a bacterial growth broth. lol

 

[rishma]

Interesting!

Are you thinking that by feeding the aquarium bacteria the right food blend, we should see a decline in nitrate and phosphate?

That was sort of my question; what is the goal of using it? generate bacteria as filter feeder food in situ?

The mix should be OK chemically, but also may be a bacterial growth broth. lol

Why would I want to do this? Bacterial broth of course!! lol

fair questions. A challenge I’ve had long term with carbon dosing was an inability to reach a steady state. Usually nitrate goes down too much or phosphate not enough. I was thinking through how to make a solution where I could tweak the N and P additions to achieve stable nutrients in the tank. The experiment would potentially provide a starting point, not the final solution because the final solution would need to account for other N and P sources and consumption in the tank. The bacteria as filter food is a bonus.

 

[Reefering1]

A challenge I’ve had long term with carbon dosing was an inability to reach a steady state.

My solution to this is a overgrown fuge. I feed like a madman(10 cubes frozen and 1 sheet of nori a day in 180g), test barely detectable on ATI icp(forget the number but its green<1/.05) consistently. The fuge provides visual ques to nutrient level/ carbon dose. Chateo dying back, lessen the dose; if alot of new growth, up vodka dose. Besides visual que, I feel like it acts as a buffer- smoothing swings and protection from bottoming out as the algea grows/ dies back...

 

[rishma]

My solution to this is an overgrown fuge. I feed like a madman(10 cubes frozen and 1 sheet of nori a day in 180g), test barely detectable on ATI icp(forget the number but its green<1/.05) consistently. The fuge provides visual ques to nutrient level/ carbon dose. Chateo dying back, lessen the dose; if alot of new growth, up vodka dose. Besides visual que, I feel like it acts as a buffer- smoothing swings and protection from bottoming out as the algea grows/ dies back...

I should have added that I have reached a steady state in my current tank using NP bacto balance and ammonium bicarbonate dosed separately. That’s what triggered the idea.

 

[Dan_P]

I have been thinking about running an experiment. Interested in your thoughts.

The goal would be to develop a mixture of vinegar, ammonium nitrate and trisodium phosphate that is balanced in terms of nutrients added and consumed. Basically, I want to add the same amount of nitrogen and phosphorus that is consumed by the bacteria with addition of vinegar, all in one dose. Here is what I am thinking:

Step 1: determine nitrate and phosphate consumption
Take 1L aquarium water
Measure nitrate and phosphate
Dose a fixed amount of vinegar
Measure nitrate and phosphate 24 hrs later.

Likely repeat this test a few times, and test before and after the 24 hour period.

Step 2: dose the balanced n & p
I would add ammonium bicarbonate and trisodium phosphate to the vinegar so that the dose includes enough equivalent nitrate and phosphate to offset the consumption.

Repeat the tests from step 1. If it works, the nitrate and phosphate will not change.

Reasons this might not work or might not be applicable to the reef tank:

I think ammonia is directly taken up by the corals and algae in the tank, but in the test it would only be bacteria. If I dose the mixture to the tank, the nitrate may decline (maybe phosphate too?) due to their consumption.

Mixing the chemicals might not work? Not sure if there will be reactions or precipitation.

I think the addition of ammonia might result in greater bacterial growth and more phosphate consumption, so phosphate might still go down.

I suppose I could try, then adjust mixture again after step 2.

Mixing the chemicals will not cause a precipitate or undesirable reaction.

Dosing ammonia and vinegar to the aquarium is providing a banquet to the bacteria and might stimulate rapid growth. This would be an issue for fish and coral if you dosed a large amount and rapidly depleted the oxygen in the aquarium. Just saying that care is needed while experimenting with the dose.

I would be interested in hearing about the results of your study, whether it worked or not. I am especially interested in the nitrate and phosphate consumption in a sample of aquarium water dosed with vinegar.

Good luck!

 

[rishma]

Mixing the chemicals will not cause a precipitate or undesirable reaction.

Dosing ammonia and vinegar to the aquarium is providing a banquet to the bacteria and might stimulate rapid growth. This would be an issue for fish and coral if you dosed a large amount and rapidly depleted the oxygen in the aquarium. Just saying that care is needed while experimenting with the dose.

I would be interested in hearing about the results of your study, whether it worked or not. I am especially interested in the nitrate and phosphate consumption in a sample of aquarium water dosed with vinegar.

Good luck

Randy recently posted this article. It took me a while to wade through it but it made me think of the bacterial growth broth (that name will stick) and @SunnyX bacteria driven reef.

https://reefs.com/magazine/bacteria...ing-and-granular-activated-carbon-filtration/

I am wondering if my tank/corals might benefit from more food, more bacteria, etc. Rather than playing mad scientist and making bacterial growth broth, I think I’ll start by ratcheting up my food additions and carbon dosing to see if I can keep stable inorganic nutrients with higher inputs. I feed the same precise mass of food daily to keep the current balance, so it will still be something of an experiment.

 

[wickedxreef]

There are a few things I’d do:

Saturate the vinegar with kalkwasser. Add enough kalk powder to the vinegar until there is some precipitation on the bottom. Dose only the clear portion. The precipitation will redissolve as you add more vinegar, so it’s not wasted. This will add some alk to the tank.

Keep alkalinity from 7-11dKH, but I’d prefer it around 9-11 if higher pH is the goal. Higher alk leads to higher pH the CO2 equilibrium changes.

Use sodium hydroxide or kalkwasser as part of your alkalinity additive.

Increase fresh air into the house.

There are some other things you can do, but those are my favorite ways.

Question here: If I understand, if you have a gallon jug of vinegar, you would basically mix enough until you see precipitation? Then from there, you would follow your normal vinegar dosing schedule for controlling Nitrates? Obviously you would adjust for the possible boost in Alk.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Question here: If I understand, if you have a gallon jug of vinegar, you would basically mix enough until you see precipitation? Then from there, you would follow your normal vinegar dosing schedule for controlling Nitrates? Obviously you would adjust for the possible boost in Alk.

I just added a bunch of excess and had significant solids on the bottom. That's no concern. It doesn't actually precipitate, it just never dissolves in the first place.