NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

[wickedxreef]

Hello All -

I've been dosing vinegar for approximately 3-4 weeks. Before that, I used NoPox and successfully maintained nitrate levels below 30ppm and phosphates around 0.15. I switched to vinegar due to the cost savings, but I'm concerned I may be reaching the upper limits of safe dosing.

I have a heavily stocked 220.6-gallon Waterbox tank. Even with 300ml of vinegar (increased from an initial 250ml), nitrate levels are barely staying at 40ppm and phosphates are between 0.4 and 0.5. I'm considering either switching back to NoPox or increasing the vinegar dosage, but I'm worried about overdosing. Would it be safe to increase the vinegar dosage significantly?

As a side note, for some reason, whenever I run GFO passively, it triggers a STN event in my SPS corals. I'm not sure why this is happening, as the GFO shouldn't be impacting the tank's chemistry too aggressively.

 

[Miami Reef]

NOPOX is mix of vodka and vinegar. There’s some methanol to avoid extra taxes. I’m not sure why vinegar isn’t working when NOPOX was. I’d just switch back to NOPOX to see if the nitrate starts dropping again.

I don’t know why GFO is causing issues. It removes phosphate and might release a little iron which is fine. It might remove a tiny bit of trace elements. If phosphates didn’t decrease too drastically, then I’m not sure why you observed that effect.

 

[wickedxreef]

NOPOX is mix of vodka and vinegar. There’s some methanol to avoid extra taxes. I’m not sure why vinegar isn’t working when NOPOX was. I’d just switch back to NOPOX to see if the nitrate starts dropping again.

I don’t know why GFO is causing issues. It removes phosphate and might release a little iron which is fine. It might remove a tiny bit of trace elements. If phosphates didn’t decrease too drastically, then I’m not sure why you observed that effect.

Thank you! Yes the gfo was a real head scratcher for me. I considered using a liquid phosphate remover, but have read bad things about using them.

 

[rishma]

Hello All -

I've been dosing vinegar for approximately 3-4 weeks. Before that, I used NoPox and successfully maintained nitrate levels below 30ppm and phosphates around 0.15. I switched to vinegar due to the cost savings, but I'm concerned I may be reaching the upper limits of safe dosing.

I have a heavily stocked 220.6-gallon Waterbox tank. Even with 300ml of vinegar (increased from an initial 250ml), nitrate levels are barely staying at 40ppm and phosphates are between 0.4 and 0.5. I'm considering either switching back to NoPox or increasing the vinegar dosage, but I'm worried about overdosing. Would it be safe to increase the vinegar dosage significantly?

As a side note, for some reason, whenever I run GFO passively, it triggers a STN event in my SPS corals. I'm not sure why this is happening, as the GFO shouldn't be impacting the tank's chemistry too aggressively.

If you happen to be out of nopox, rather than buying new I’d suggest just mixing your own. A quick search will give you the diy recipe. Vodka vinegar and some water.

I’ve had a lot of bad outcomes with GFo and gave up using it completely for some time. I found that using small amounts and adding to it over time as needed seemed to prevent those issues. I start with a Fraction of the recommended dose, and rinse well before use.

 

[wickedxreef]

If you happen to be out of nopox, rather than buying new I’d suggest just mixing your own. A quick search will give you the diy recipe. Vodka vinegar and some water.

I’ve had a lot of bad outcomes with GFo and gave up using it completely for some time. I found that using small amounts and adding to it over time as needed seemed to prevent those issues. I start with. Fraction of the recommended dose, and rinse well before use.

Curious, did you run the gfo active or passive? I ran GFO on the light side in a bag and rinsed it as best as I could. Maybe active in a reactor with running more water through would do a better job though?

 

[Miami Reef]

You can certainly DIY it:

This is the rough recipe:

"Mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water."

I would probably just use the original NOPOX for now.

If you use the same NOPOX dose as before and it doesn’t work, then you’d know something in your tank has changed.

Your current vinegar dose is very high, and I don’t think I’d want that dose in my tank. It will lower the pH by a lot and cause a lot of bacteria slime.

You can use lanthanum chloride. The risk is hit or miss, and the issue seems to be targeted to some tangs (not all.)

I’d dose it very slow (under dose it at first.)

Spread the dose throughout the day upstream the skimmer. The lanthanum phosphate precipitate will almost certainly bind to organics which will make them skimmable.


I still don’t understand why GFO caused your issues, though. I use a small amount and change it more often. I use it in a reactor.

 

[rishma]

Curious, did you run the gfo active or passive? I ran GFO on the light side in a bag and rinsed it as best as I could. Maybe active in a reactor with running more water through would do a better job though?

I’ve run GFO both ways. I currently have a small tank and run it passively on the rare occasion I’ve wanted to correct phosphate.

there are advantages to running GFO in a reactor but also potential downsides. I think Running water directly through the GFO in a reactor removes phosphate faster and more efficiently. That can be good or bad. You can monitor the outlet if the reactor to know when GFO is exhausted. That’s pretty helpful.

 

[wickedxreef]

You can certainly DIY it:



I would probably just use the original NOPOX for now.

If you use the same NOPOX dose as before and it doesn’t work, then you’d know something in your tank has changed.

Your current vinegar dose is very high, and I don’t think I’d want that dose in my tank. It will lower the pH by a lot and cause a lot of bacteria slime.

You can use lanthanum chloride. The risk is hit or miss, and the issue seems to be targeted to some tangs (not all.)

I’d dose it very slow (under dose it at first.)

Spread the dose throughout the day upstream the skimmer. The lanthanum phosphate precipitate will almost certainly bind to organics which will make them skimmable.


I still don’t understand why GFO caused your issues, though. I use a small amount and change it more often. I use it in a reactor.

That’s what it was, it messes with certain tangs which I have quite a few of.

The GFO is an odd one, I’ve even tried different brands and all triggers a stn event in the tank. It was really bizarre and I’ve never had that issue in previous tanks.

I have more NoPox on the way and will report back next week. I was around 20-25ml with NoPox. If that works, I’ll make the DIY after it runs out and see if it reports the same results.

 

[Luisn17]

Hello,

I have been battling on keeping phosphates under control. I attempted using eliminp and it worked great but cost and dosing amounts was issue. I was dosing between 12-15 ml to my 260 gallon of total tank volume. I purchased an algae scrubber thinking it was going to solve all my issues and nope. I still had to carbon dose at lower levels: 5ml-6ml. Nitrates have always been in control and never over 20. But phosphates will vary from 0.15 to 0.40.

I recently switched to nopox with the algae scrubber still online. I started dosing the same 6ml but noticed a spike of phosphate and nitrate to a current level of 0.30 and 12.4 from 0.15 and 5.4. A couple euphyllia look upset but for whatever reason my SPS look fine, which is very confusing to me.

I clean the algae scrubber once a week since it grows thick. Not sure how to proceed and keep things stable with phosphate. Should I fully commit to carbon dosing nopox( I will change to DIY nopox once I run out of nopox). I don’t know if having both the scrubber and carbon dosing with 10% water changes weekly is making the water too clean. I currently dose 15ml of nopox, do 25 gallon change via auto water changes, and the scrubber is on for 13 hours. Skimmer is on 24/7

 

[Reefering1]

If nitrate is where you want it, I wouldn't be carbon dosing to remove po4. Gfo or lc to get po4 where you want, then decide if carbon dosing is desired.

 

[Miami Reef]

If nitrate is where you want it, I wouldn't be carbon dosing to remove po4. Gfo or lc to get po4 where you want, then decide if carbon dosing is desired.

Exactly this. Carbon dosing is much more effective for nitrate than phosphate. Instead of simultaneously trying to reduce both, do it individually.

It’s significantly easier to directly remove phosphate, so you have that as an advantage. You can use GFO, Phosguard, or Lanthanum chloride. All of those work effectively for phosphate.

I don’t know if having both the scrubber and carbon dosing with 10% water changes weekly is making the water too clean.

You can use your nutrient levels to help you determine how clean the water is. As long as it isn’t too low, you’re good. The carbon dosing from NOPOX will bring lots of bacteria in the water column. You’ll pretty much always have some food floating around for the corals.

 

[Miami Reef]

The GFO is an odd one, I’ve even tried different brands and all triggers a stn event in the tank. It was really bizarre and I’ve never had that issue in previous tanks.

Do you mind telling me the phosphate before the GFO and then the phosphate level after when the corals started having STN?

 

[Luisn17]

Exactly this. Carbon dosing is much more effective for nitrate than phosphate. Instead of simultaneously trying to reduce both, do it individually.

It’s significantly easier to directly remove phosphate, so you have that as an advantage. You can use GFO, Phosguard, or Lanthanum chloride. All of those work effectively for phosphate.


You can use your nutrient levels to help you determine how clean the water is. As long as it isn’t too low, you’re good. The carbon dosing from NOPOX will bring lots of bacteria in the water column. You’ll pretty much always have some food floating around for the corals.

I was able to see a drop in phosphate using eliminp but I did bottom out my nitrate to 0. I had to dose nitrate in order to keep things in order. I used phosguard in the past but noticed my leathers get really mad and is so easy to get into a yo-yo scenario. I know LC works get but I basically have all tangs and fear having issues with them. I will give rowaphos a try and just leave it in the sump versus placing it in a reactor to make it easier on the corals. I will continue to use the scrubber.

If things don’t work, I can’t always give carbon dosing a try, I know it works. If I do, I will take the scrubber offline.

 

[Miami Reef]

I was able to see a drop in phosphate using eliminp but I did bottom out my nitrate to 0. I had to dose nitrate in order to keep things in order.

I like this method the best. I think the price is worth it. It worked for phosphate, and then you just dose nitrate as needed.

I never used it, but it sounds easy, simple, and stress-free.

Do you think it’s worth trying it again, or did you want to find alternatives?

I agree phosguard can cause some leathers to not be happy. I personally don’t like it since it releases soluble aluminum, but I had to list it as an option. I didn’t want to be biased. Some people like it.

 

[Luisn17]

I like this method the best. I think the price is worth it. It worked for phosphate, and then you just dose nitrate as needed.

I never used it, but it sounds easy, simple, and stress-free.

Do you think it’s worth trying it again, or did you want to find alternatives?

I agree phosguard can cause some leathers to not be happy. I personally don’t like it since it releases soluble aluminum, but I had to list it as an option. I didn’t want to be biased. Some people like it.

For small tanks I will say it works great. Due to my tank being 260 gallons, them selling 250ml bottles for 20 bucks, and at times hard to find. Is not worth it. The most I dosed was 17ml daily so I was going thru a bottle quickly. They sell a big bottle of bacto balance but nothing on a big bottle of elimi np. I even called TM to ask on plans for a bigger bottle but nothing.

But is not stress free hence why I purchased the scrubber since I had po4 spikes out of nowhere. I even thought my nephew, my dog, or someone was throwing something in the tank. I will go from 0.09 to 0.25 all of a sudden. My elegance is my “dude, this is unacceptable” coral. I test po4 and nitrate every Saturday unless I see something which is off and test more frequently. I test in the morning before feeding using Hanna checkers.

 

[Miami Reef]

For small tanks I will say it works great. Due to my tank being 260 gallons, them selling 250ml bottles for 20 bucks, and at times hard to find.

Oh wow. It makes sense that you’d want to switch. Got it.

For nitrate use vodka/vinegar/nopox (whichever you prefer. Doesn’t really matter)

Algae scrubber paired with it will help as well.

For phosphate you can choose between GFO and lanthanum chloride. Since cost and ease of use is a goal, I think lanthanum might be better for you.

Start low so you can get a gauge for how your fish handle it. Many people don’t have issues, so don’t assume it will happen to you.

People have had good results with diluting the product and using a doser to add little amounts throughout the day. The skimmer will be the main export.

Here’s the thread by Randy: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-lanthanum-dosing.969669/


If you decide to use GFO, I’d suggest a reactor with a gentle tumble on the surface.

 

[Miami Reef]

You can also decide to leave the phosphate as it is. Many people keep their nutrients high these days with no problems. I’ve seen reef tanks with phosphate as high as 1.0ppm.

 

[Miami Reef]

It's quite high (if accurate), but not the end of the world.

Richard Ross' tank also has 1 ppm phosphate:

Skeptical Reefkeeping 9: Test Kits, Chasing Numbers and Phosphate

By Rich Ross and Chris Jury There are many standard parameters in the reefkeeping world that aquarists strive to match in their home reefs – water quality,

reefs.com

 

[Marc Pardon]

A few questions about the cases were things are going wrong:
- focusing on nitrate with high doses of carbon : could there be a scenario where we strip al the available ammonia from the tank?
- focusing on high bacterial growth : don't we need enough trace elements to support this process?
- focusing on high nitrate numbers together with high doses of carbon : shouldn't we forget to measure nitrite in case of interference with the measurement of nitrate?

 

[Miami Reef]

focusing on nitrate with high doses of carbon : could there be a scenario where we strip al the available ammonia from the tank?

Bacteria may also prefer ammonia over nitrate. I don’t believe ammonia starvation is likely. We aren’t dosing carbon to the point where the water is thick with bacteria slime. Everyone has a fair shot at getting ammonia.

Many corals can also make do with nitrate. The corals can also capture bacteria, so starvation in a high nutrient tank with carbon dosing is unlikely.

focusing on high bacterial growth : don't we need enough trace elements to support this process?

Yes, we do. I wonder if the people that don’t find carbon dosing effective are deficient in some trace elements. It can’t hurt to dose a little and see if there’s a response in the nitrate reduction.

focusing on high nitrate numbers together with high doses of carbon : shouldn't we forget to measure nitrite in case of interference with the measurement of nitrate?

Testing nitrite is a good idea when nitrate tests are unusually high. Though, I think detectable nitrite is pretty uncommon in established tanks over 6 months old. It can’t hurt to check, especially if the NO3 readings are off the charts.