NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

[Marc Pardon]

Bacteria may also prefer ammonia over nitrate. I don’t believe ammonia starvation is likely. We aren’t dosing carbon to the point where the water is thick with bacteria slime. Everyone has a fair shot at getting ammonia.

How can we know that if we are not measuring this? Are there indicators?

Many corals can also make do with nitrate. The corals can also capture bacteria, so starvation in a high nutrient tank with carbon dosing is unlikely.

Yes that could be an advantage ....

Yes, we do. I wonder if the people that don’t find carbon dosing effective are deficient in some trace elements. It can’t hurt to dose a little and see if there’s a response in the nitrate reduction.

Is the approach of tropic Marin with there Bacto Balance not the best way to go? Making a mix with the needed trace elements and a small amount of nitrogen to backup this process?

Testing nitrite is a good idea when nitrate tests are unusually high. Though, I think detectable nitrite is pretty uncommon in established tanks over 6 months old. It can’t hurt to check, especially if the NO3 readings are off the charts.

I doubt this. 99,9% of the mature tanks are not measuring this parameter. I have a 650 liter sps tank (age 7 years) with carbon dosing as a tool. A few months ago I raised the dosage and instead of going down with No3, I went up. After reading a few threads on this forum (Thanx @Lasse ) I figured out that my tank was producing nitrite ..... Was this the start of the change or was this already longer the case? And was I making assumptions based on wrong No3 numbers in the past. ICP doesn't gave answers when this is the only tool in combination with the "home" no3 test kits .....

And what is happening in my tank? Is No3 acting as an reductant (ending with No2) or am I boosting a incomplete nitratifiaction process with carbon dosing stimulating only heterotrophic bacteria?

 

[goosemans]

Thank you. Clams are my passion. I currently have 18 maxima clams in my tank.

This is my favorite photo I’ve taken of them.

Clams aside, I’ve read you say that in your opinion, the slow ramp in the other chart was unnecessary. Do you think this new ramp is an improvement or not? Do you have any criticisms? We are all here to learn and have the best outcome for our tanks.

I really appreciate your feedback. Positive or not. I just want to help reefers in the best way possible.

You wanna donate one to me? Jk

 

[Lasse]

After reading a few threads on this forum (Thanx @Lasse ) I figured out that my tank was producing nitrite ..... Was this the start of the change or was this already longer the case? And was I making assumptions based on wrong No3 numbers in the past. ICP doesn't gave answers when this is the only tool in combination with the "home" no3 test kits .....

This is interesting. You live in Europe - please send in an ICP test to OCEAMO in Austria. They analyse NO3 and NO2 with methods that not interfere with each others.

I have also found that Hanna High NO3 method is sensitive against NO2 but not so much. I have a place in my aquarium there it is a ongoing production of NO2. I plot NO2 there with the ration of NO3 in that compartment and NO3 in the incoming water to the reaction center (below my DSB and without NO2 in the water - See below. Its not a perfect way to analyse but it shows that there may be an amplification of the true NO3 value by approximately 100% at NO2 concentrations above 1 mg/L and it start to change the reading around 0.2 mg/L NO2. But this incorrect readings are manageable IMO if you have around 0-10 mg NO3/L in reality.

And what is happening in my tank? Is No3 acting as an reductant (ending with No2) or am I boosting a incomplete nitratifiaction process with carbon dosing stimulating only heterotrophic bacteria?

Yes - it could be that way but i is interesting to know your real NO3 because you have an old system and there is an anaerobic autotroph bacteria process that use NO2 in order to convert NH4/NH3 directly to N2, - the Anammox process. This can mean that you still are low in real NO3 but this process is not proven in saltwater aquaria as I know.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Miami Reef]

How can we know that if we are not measuring this? Are there indicators?

I don’t know. I haven’t seen evidence either way.

the approach of tropic Marin with there Bacto Balance not the best way to go? Making a mix with the needed trace elements and a small amount of nitrogen to backup this process?

@Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How can we know that if we are not measuring this? Are there indicators?

There are a lot of unknowns about exactly which organisms are using the various organics dosed to aquaria. As long as there is nitrate of at least a few ppm, most corals won’t starve for lack of N, but they may well not be as happy if more bacteria are competing for ammonia.

I don’t really see a reason to use bactobalance, and the rationale that TM gives doesn’t convince me it is desirable. That said, it may be a fine way to go.

 

[Marc Pardon]

This is interesting. You live in Europe - please send in an ICP test to OCEAMO in Austria. They analyse NO3 and NO2 with methods that not interfere with each others.

Thanx for chiming in. Today I have sent the ATI ICP oes/MS analyse. They use ion chromatography for nitrate and fluor but don't measure nitrite. But according to their staff I get a good idea of the NO3. Oceamo was on my mind but I have to order direct in Austria for the product and not available in my country.

Answer from ATI:
"During the measurement in ion chromatography, there is no interference from the presence of nitrite with regard to the nitrate result, as both are detected at different times during the measurement."

I have measured nitrite with the Tropic Marin pro kit and I get a result of : 0,05 ppm. This would be approximately 5 ppm No3 (x100).

 

[Lasse]

I have found the the marine low nitrite method used by Hanna both for the checker and Hanna Marin Master is rathe stable and good. However it gives the result in x µg/L (ppb) NO2-N and needs to be converted. Formula = x µg/L NO2-N -> 3,29x/1000 mg/L NO2

Sincerely Lasse

 

[rishma]

For small tanks I will say it works great. Due to my tank being 260 gallons, them selling 250ml bottles for 20 bucks, and at times hard to find. Is not worth it. The most I dosed was 17ml daily so I was going thru a bottle quickly. They sell a big bottle of bacto balance but nothing on a big bottle of elimi np. I even called TM to ask on plans for a bigger bottle but nothing.

But is not stress free hence why I purchased the scrubber since I had po4 spikes out of nowhere. I even thought my nephew, my dog, or someone was throwing something in the tank. I will go from 0.09 to 0.25 all of a sudden. My elegance is my “dude, this is unacceptable” coral. I test po4 and nitrate every Saturday unless I see something which is off and test more frequently. I test in the morning before feeding using Hanna checkers.

Have you tried NP bacto balance?

I find it very effective at managing phosphate and nitrate.

 

[rishma]

There are a lot of unknowns about exactly which organisms are using the various organics dosed to aquaria. As long as there is nitrate of at least a few ppm, most corals won’t starve for lack of N, but they may well not be as happy if more bacteria are competing for ammonia.

I don’t really see a reason to use bactobalance, and the rationale that TM gives doesn’t convince me it is desirable. That said, it may be a fine way to go.

I agree the TM rationale is not satisfying. I like the results. It’s the one product I use that I do not really understand what’s in it.

I really do not know why NP bacto balance works differently than other carbon dosing, but I think it does. My main goal for carbon dosing is phosphate and nitrate control. Nitrate control is easy with vodka, vinegar, etc.

I have done a lot of carbon dosing over the years. I was never able to maintain stable phosphate long term. I often had to use GFO. Closest I got was dosing vinegar and nitrate to keep phosphate in check. If I was to do it again today I’d use ammonia and vinegar and I bet it would work.

In my tank, bacto balance does keep stable phosphate and fairly stable nitrate. I say fairly stable because nitrate has drifted lower multiple times while phosphate stayed stable, but the nitrate drift was much slower than with other carbon dosing methods.

As far as bacteria diversity, feeding corals, trace elements, etc…I have no idea. But for phosphate and nitrate management NP Bacto Balance gets good marks from me.

 

[Luisn17]

Have you tried NP bacto balance?

I find it very effective at managing phosphate and nitrate.

No, because per the “rules” bacto balance is to be used once the tank is under 0.10 phosphate. I actually have a big bottle which I never used since I can’t maintain low phosphate levels.

Have you used both? I wonder how different they really are.

 

[rishma]

No, because per the “rules” bacto balance is to be used once the tank is under 0.10 phosphate. I actually have a big bottle which I never used since I can’t maintain low phosphate levels.

Have you used both? I wonder how different they really are.

I have used plus NP and NP BB. Those two are definitely different.

FWIW, I have not really followed their rules. If my phosphate drifted up to >0.15 I would increase my dose slightly and it would come back down.

 

[Luisn17]

I have used plus NP and NP BB. Those two are definitely different.

FWIW, I have not really followed their rules. If my phosphate drifted up to >0.15 I would increase my dose slightly and it would come back down.

Today I dosed 7ml of BB and 20 ml of micro bactro 7 since I found other posts stating the same like you: they only used BB. For some weird reason my hammers and torch look amazing.

I will keep a closer eye on my nutrients. But my corals did not like nopox or maybe the transition from elimi np to nopox was too aggressive.

But really thinking maybe TM carbon dosing system with the 3 products is just a way to sell 3 products. I don’t know, I could be wrong. Or maybe is the combination of carbon dosing and bacteria the corals like.

 

[Justin_Reef]

I have done carbon dosing several times in the past with success and no issues, but over the past 5 years I have tried it twice in my current aquarium and had the same issue both times. After roughly a month, my Regal Tang gets red marks on her belly and one of my PJ Cardinal's gets a white growth on it's fins. When I stop carbon dosing, both issues go away within about 2 weeks. I know it could be a coincidence, but that seems unlikely considering they never have these issues when I am not carbon dosing.

I also tend to get a very thick build up of gooey white "stuff" on my pumps and inside my overflow, along with some of my plumbing. It's not a big deal until it starts to clog things up.

This is a 200G aquarium, oversized skimmer, UV, and both times I was dosing NoPox. The issues continue even at half strength, so I stopped. I haven't carbon dosed in a few years now, but I am itching to try again... just not with NoPox.

Anyone else have issues like this? I have yet to read anyone else mentioning anything.

 

[Lavabrine ninja]

The reasons I'm updating the Vinegar and Vodka dosing charts are two-fold:

1. The ramp was unnecessarily slow. There was no perceived benefit to such a tedious ramp, and it led to reefers quitting because they thought carbon dosing didn't work.

2. The ramp did not scale up correctly at all. A 40x larger tank only received 2x the needed dose. (A 1,000-gallon tank only received twice the dose of a 25-gallon tank).


Carbon dosing is a fantastic way to lower nutrients, more specifically nitrate. The reason is three-fold:

1. Organisms, such as bacteria, contain much more nitrogen than phosphorous.

2. Denitrification is a process that happens in anaerobic conditions (little to no oxygen). These bacteria require an organic to oxidize the nitrate molecule (NO3-) into Nitrogen (N2). They use the oxygen that is attached to the nitrate molecule to respire. Thus, there will be NO phosphate consumed during this process.

Here is the equation by @Randy Holmes-Farley :

organic + 124 NO3– + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

3.We have an immense reservoir of phosphate bound to calcium carbonate rocks and sand. To put to pespective, a 50% water change with nutrient-free water will successfully reduce your nitrate values by 50%. Phosphates will likely remain unchanged.


For these reasons, I do NOT recommend dosing carbon solely for controlling phosphates. It is likey to completely bottom-out nitrate before seeing phosphate decrease.

What are the benefits of carbon dosing?

Besides reducing nitrate, spurring bacteria is the main benefit. This bacteria can feed many organisms and filter feeders.

What about other carbon sources such as NP Bacto Balance or NOPOX?

You can carbon dose with NP Bacto Balance or NOPOX, but dosing straight vinegar or vodka is inexpensive and readily available in stores.


What kind of vinegar or vodka should I use?

Any food-grade white vinegar is safe to use. White distilled vinegar usually the most pure, cheapest, and easy to find.

For vodka, 80 proof vodka (40% ethanol) is safe to use.

Here are the charts. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Doesn't dosing the vinegar lower alk? I'm trying to lower nitrates without effect alk. What would the best approach to this?

 

[gbroadbridge]

I also tend to get a very thick build up of gooey white "stuff" on my pumps and inside my overflow, along with some of my plumbing. It's not a big deal until it starts to clog things up.

Anyone else have issues like this? I have yet to read anyone else mentioning anything.

It's very common, so I'm surprised you didn't find it with a search.

The white stringy stuff are bacterial colonies. Basically it means you are overdosing carbon or bacterial products or both.

The bacteria population explodes due to excess nutrients.
It can also cause cloudy or shimmering water.

 

[Justin_Reef]

It's very common, so I'm surprised you didn't find it with a search.

The white stringy stuff are bacterial colonies. Basically it means you are overdosing carbon or bacterial products or both.

The bacteria population explodes due to excess nutrients.
It can also cause cloudy or shimmering water.

I wasn't referring to the white stringy stuff, but thanks. I was referring to the issues with the fish.

 

[Lasse]

The bacteria population explodes due to excess nutrients

They explode because labile organic dissolved carbon was the growth limited factor for them. The could not use the excess of other nutrients because of this limmitation.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I was referring to the issues with the fish.

I could be that the issue with the fish is because of the growth of earlier DOC limited Vibrio bacteria explode to a amount that the fish immune system does not manage.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Marc Pardon]

I have found the the marine low nitrite method used by Hanna both for the checker and Hanna Marin Master is rathe stable and good. However it gives the result in x µg/L (ppb) NO2-N and needs to be converted. Formula = x µg/L NO2-N -> 3,29x/1000 mg/L NO2

Sincerely Lasse

Thanx for the tip. On this moment I am happy with the TM pro kit. I don't know on this moment if there is a value for me in more "precise" measurement of this No2.

Did you ever thought about the option that certain trace elements can be the limiting factor is this phenomenon (build up/arise of No2 in mature tanks)?

 

[Lasse]

I have measured nitrite with the Tropic Marin pro kit and I get a result of : 0,05 ppm. This would be approximately 5 ppm No3 (x100).

I´m sorry - I read this but my brain was somewhere else. 0.05 ppm NO2 is a normal value in mature tanks IMO. Below is my OCEAMO measurement of NO2 since 2020

And last year Hanna NO2

How much have your NO3 rise?

Sincerely Lasse