NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

[00W]

I have done carbon dosing several times in the past with success and no issues, but over the past 5 years I have tried it twice in my current aquarium and had the same issue both times. After roughly a month, my Regal Tang gets red marks on her belly and one of my PJ Cardinal's gets a white growth on it's fins. When I stop carbon dosing, both issues go away within about 2 weeks. I know it could be a coincidence, but that seems unlikely considering they never have these issues when I am not carbon dosing.

I also tend to get a very thick build up of gooey white "stuff" on my pumps and inside my overflow, along with some of my plumbing. It's not a big deal until it starts to clog things up.

This is a 200G aquarium, oversized skimmer, UV, and both times I was dosing NoPox. The issues continue even at half strength, so I stopped. I haven't carbon dosed in a few years now, but I am itching to try again... just not with NoPox.

Anyone else have issues like this? I have yet to read anyone else mentioning anything.

Both times this happened was with NoPox. I always figured the carbon source was feeding some type of bacteria on the fins of my PJ Cardinal, but the red streaks on the belly of the Regal tang never made sense to me. I can't be sure they were caused by the carbon source, but they've only ever appeared when I am dosing carbon. She never seemed bothered by them, as far as I could tell, but they looked quite concerning.

I did mention previously on this thread that the same thing happened 3 different times with my yellow tang.
Would like to start carbon dosing again but just can't bring myself to see the tang in this condition.
I've scoured and found other instances of this in tangs as well and I am actually glad you posted this so as I am not going crazy and am not the only one this is happening to.
Both other instances I found were with dosing NoPox as well.
Each time I dosed I started with vinegar and moved to my own NoPox concoction which I got from this thread and other threads as well.
At 2 weeks on the money each time these red blotches/lesions would occur, each time in the same spots.
Each time I ran vinegar for a week then added in the vodka starting week 2.
My theory is that whatever bacteria the vodka feeds this fish cannot tolerate.
Now, this also seems like it is particular to certain fish since the times I've seen this mentioned are extremely rare and far between.
We may just have a couple of those fish.
Just food for thought, my 2 cents.
Joel

 

[Miami Reef]

My theory is that whatever bacteria the vodka feeds this fish cannot tolerate.

That sounds like a plausible theory. Carbon dosing is indiscriminate; it can feed good and pathogenic bacteria. You may have a pathogenic strain that gets spurred with carbon.

 

[Jari]

Thanks for the new charts @Miami Reef!

I dosed vodka years ago, but with my new tank have not done it until I started a week ago. I have been dosing ammonium bicarbonate (20ml/day to 80gallons) using Randy's instructions (almost a year now), and it has been extremely useful in getting nitrate up (from zero to >20), with decent growth rate.

Now after one week of dosing vodka (currently 2ml/day) in addition to ammonia, it looks like PE is much better, and it feels like the growth has increased even more since starting ammonia dosing. I also need to dose phosphate and increase ammonia dose to keep the levels constant.

I'm also wondering what to do - keep the vodka dose same as before, or keep increasing the vodka dose while also increasing ammonia + phosphate dose until the corals are going to explode. Would you or @Randy Holmes-Farley have any suggestions?

 

[buruskeee]

I've skimmed through this thread - but still a little feel I'm missing the solution for my needs.

I removed all my macro algae (chaeto had bubble growing in it and I didn't want it to spread), and now my PO4 is at 0.5ppm despite conservatively dosing (5ml every 5 days) lanthanum (brightwell), it's not really budging. I used to be able to maintain 0.1-0.2ppm dosing NP-Bacto and every month or so adding 2-3ml of lanthanum if it got to 0.25ppm. I realized NP-Bacto has too much iron in it, and might have caused my Cyano to come back, so I'm trying to stay away from it.

The problem is I dose ammonia because my nitrates will bottom out if I don't. I maintain about 1-2ppm NO3 with my ammonia dosing (thanks Randy!). I'm ready to start vodka dosing, but I'm not sure if it will help with my high PO4 problem when my NO3 is so low.

Advice?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've skimmed through this thread - but still a little feel I'm missing the solution for my needs.

I removed all my macro algae (chaeto had bubble growing in it and I didn't want it to spread), and now my PO4 is at 0.5ppm despite conservatively dosing (5ml every 5 days) lanthanum (brightwell), it's not really budging. I used to be able to maintain 0.1-0.2ppm dosing NP-Bacto and every month or so adding 2-3ml of lanthanum if it got to 0.25ppm. I realized NP-Bacto has too much iron in it, and might have caused my Cyano to come back, so I'm trying to stay away from it.

The problem is I dose ammonia because my nitrates will bottom out if I don't. I maintain about 1-2ppm NO3 with my ammonia dosing (thanks Randy!). I'm ready to start vodka dosing, but I'm not sure if it will help with my high PO4 problem when my NO3 is so low.

Advice?

My suggestion s to look toward other methods than carbon dosing with nitrate already low. That said, lowering it may not be needed.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/

 

[buruskeee]

My suggestion s to look toward other methods than carbon dosing with nitrate already low. That said, lowering it may not be needed.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/

I've thought about just letting the PO4 settle where it wants, but I have an SPS dominant system and I've read about slower growth from higher PO4.

Also, scraping my glass is so much of a chore once it's above 0.2ppm. Anything above 0.3ppm grows a thick film that can't go more than a day without scraping. after 2 days it starts to get "caked" on and elbow grease increases.

I might just invest in a ATS or restart my fuge with "clean" chaeto.

 

[Miami Reef]

I realized NP-Bacto has too much iron in it, and might have caused my Cyano to come back, so I'm trying to stay away from it.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Increase the lanthanum chloride additive if you want phosphate to be lower.

As noted above, carbon dosing is recommended for nitrate reduction, not phosphate.

 

[buruskeee]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Just reading about threads and iron’s relation to Dinos and cyano

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just reading about threads and iron’s relation to Dinos and cyano

Not sure why one would finger iron when folks dosing lots of iron do not see such effects, and, OTOH, both dinos and cyano would be expected to consume organics such as are in bactobalance.

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and d/l-Amino acid compositions - Scientific Reports

We measured the concentrations of dissolved inorganic and organic nutrients, dissolved organic carbon (DOC), total hydrolyzable amino acids (THAA), fluorescent dissolved organic matter (FDOM), phytoplankton pigments, and δ13C-DOC during the summer of 2019 in the harmful dinoflagellate bloom...

www.nature.com

Our results suggest that the marine production of bioavailable DOM plays an important role in initiating and sustaining harmful dinoflagellate blooms.

 

[buruskeee]

Not sure why one would finger iron when folks dosing lots of iron do not see such effects, and, OTOH, both dinos and cyano would be expected to consume organics such as are in bactobalance.

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and d/l-Amino acid compositions - Scientific Reports

We measured the concentrations of dissolved inorganic and organic nutrients, dissolved organic carbon (DOC), total hydrolyzable amino acids (THAA), fluorescent dissolved organic matter (FDOM), phytoplankton pigments, and δ13C-DOC during the summer of 2019 in the harmful dinoflagellate bloom...

www.nature.com

Our results suggest that the marine production of bioavailable DOM plays an important role in initiating and sustaining harmful dinoflagellate blooms.

Ahh, so the extra NP in organic form they include in BactoBalance can be what’s contributing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ahh, so the extra NP in organic form they include in BactoBalance can be what’s contributing?

Yes. The main reason to use it is to dose organics, and both dinos and cyano readily consume organics.

 

[Dan_P]

Not sure why one would finger iron when folks dosing lots of iron do not see such effects, and, OTOH, both dinos and cyano would be expected to consume organics such as are in bactobalance.

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and d/l-Amino acid compositions - Scientific Reports

We measured the concentrations of dissolved inorganic and organic nutrients, dissolved organic carbon (DOC), total hydrolyzable amino acids (THAA), fluorescent dissolved organic matter (FDOM), phytoplankton pigments, and δ13C-DOC during the summer of 2019 in the harmful dinoflagellate bloom...

www.nature.com

Our results suggest that the marine production of bioavailable DOM plays an important role in initiating and sustaining harmful dinoflagellate blooms.[/I]

I found this interesting too

This result is consistent with the previous hypothesis that DOM fueling red tides in this region is produced mainly by microbial production following the massive diatom growth and abrupt cessation of DIN supply.

What might be feeding the dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria are heterotrophic bacteria which are consuming organic carbon. It is not uncommon to find bacteria partnering with algae. Also, we should keep in mind that we are dealing with benthic cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates which are likely obtaining more food from the surface than from the water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I found this interesting too

This result is consistent with the previous hypothesis that DOM fueling red tides in this region is produced mainly by microbial production following the massive diatom growth and abrupt cessation of DIN supply.

What might be feeding the dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria are heterotrophic bacteria which are consuming organic carbon. It is not uncommon to find bacteria partnering with algae. Also, we should keep in mind that we are dealing with benthic cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates which are likely obtaining more food from the surface than from the water.

I don’t dispute that all of these things are very complicated and fingering one “cause” is unlikely to reflect full reality.

That said, the quote you reference is presumably suggesting that diatoms grew and produced organics for their bodies, then died and the organics they released fueled the dinos.

If one is adding organics directly, I’m not sure there need to be any intervening bacterial effects to then spur dinos.

 

[Dan_P]

I don’t dispute that all of these things are very complicated and fingering one “cause” is unlikely to reflect full reality.

That said, the quote you reference is presumably suggesting that diatoms grew and produced organics for their bodies, then died and the organics they released fueled the dinos.

If one is adding organics directly, I’m not sure there need to be any intervening bacterial effects to then spur dinos.

I interpreted the statement to mean that bacteria production not the dead diatoms fueled the growth

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Guess we will have to track down the original paper to know.

 

[Flameback Pair]

What are some of the benefits of dosing vinegar and using Mrs Wages pickling lime in the top off water. Do they have a synergistic effect?

 

[Miami Reef]

What are some of the benefits of dosing vinegar and using Mrs Wages pickling lime in the top off water. Do they have a synergistic effect?

You can dissolve more calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) powder if you add vinegar to the solution.

Kalkwasser will reduce the pH drop from added vinegar.

 

[RyansReef2025]

I tried vodka dosing on my tank and like many others, got a cyano outbreak. I read online that cyano eats the vodka carbon but not the vinegar carbon. So now I’m switching over to vinegar dosing. I watched a YouTube video where a reefer recommended a 70%/30% mix of vinegar/vodka. He called it PoPox (short for poor pox haha). The understanding is that vinegar and vodka carbon both would add carbon diversity which is better than using just one of them. I wonder if a mix like this (which would be less vodka than vodka only dosing which might mean no cyano in that case) - is the ideal carbon dosing solution. Would it be possible to consider adding 1 more chart to the first page that consists of a 70/30 mixture? What do you all think?

 

[Reef_at_Sea]

I tried vodka dosing on my tank and like many others, got a cyano outbreak. I read online that cyano eats the vodka carbon but not the vinegar carbon. So now I’m switching over to vinegar dosing. I watched a YouTube video where a reefer recommended a 70%/30% mix of vinegar/vodka. He called it PoPox (short for poor pox haha). The understanding is that vinegar and vodka carbon both would add carbon diversity which is better than using just one of them. I wonder if a mix like this (which would be less vodka than vodka only dosing which might mean no cyano in that case) - is the ideal carbon dosing solution. Would it be possible to consider adding 1 more chart to the first page that consists of a 70/30 mixture? What do you all think?

Your cyano outbreak probably is because of too low nutrients, probably phosphates.
Did you monitor your phosphates while dosing vodka? vodka won't remove nitrates if there aren't any phosphates around.

 

[Dan_P]

I tried vodka dosing on my tank and like many others, got a cyano outbreak. I read online that cyano eats the vodka carbon but not the vinegar carbon. So now I’m switching over to vinegar dosing. I watched a YouTube video where a reefer recommended a 70%/30% mix of vinegar/vodka. He called it PoPox (short for poor pox haha). The understanding is that vinegar and vodka carbon both would add carbon diversity which is better than using just one of them. I wonder if a mix like this (which would be less vodka than vodka only dosing which might mean no cyano in that case) - is the ideal carbon dosing solution. Would it be possible to consider adding 1 more chart to the first page that consists of a 70/30 mixture? What do you all think?

I think your request is a good one. The NOPOX mixture is a popular alternative.