Nitrae/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate.

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I do not agree that low nitrate is as simple as using good quality rock. Lots of folks use good quality rock and do not have nitrate that low. It's a balance between foods and export, including the rock. If the balance is tipped to too little food for the export, then nitrate will be low.

Regardless of the reason, however, having it that low (below 2 ppm, IMO) runs a risk of N being limiting, even with dosing of other compounds.

I do not doubt that your approach is recommended by some folks, but I think my suggestion is superior, unless your goal is to intentionally keep nitrate at that level, in which case, you are assuming that the "recommended" dose of whatever is in that product is perfectly suited to your specific aquarium.

My situation seems to have gotten worse, my nitrates are now down to 0.11 on the hanna Ultra low range tester and this is after I increased the amount of nitrogen I was dosing.

Its my understanding that your nitrate reading is a balance between the amount of food you put in and amount of bacterial surface area for nitrobacter to turn nitrate into nitrogen, as well as any filtration you have?

I have also tried feeding more but just seems to be making my phosphates go up but has no effect on nitrate. When I think about it I do have a heck of a lot of surface area and resonably dense sand bed.

I am not sure what to do about this as I am not convinced dosing lots of nitrate suppliments is a sustainable long term soultion. Nor am I sure if its even a problem worth worrying about since corals are not really after nitrates. I plan to add a two or three more fish but its only a reefer 350 and is fairly well stocked as it is.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Certainly nitrate is a balance of N inputs against N exports. Any sort of N input, whether fish foods, ammonia, organic N like amino acids, or nitrate dosing will help raise it. I'd up it somehow.

 

[SauceyReef]

My situation seems to have gotten worse, my nitrates are now down to 0.11 on the hanna Ultra low range tester and this is after I increased the amount of nitrogen I was dosing.

Its my understanding that your nitrate reading is a balance between the amount of food you put in and amount of bacterial surface area for nitrobacter to turn nitrate into nitrogen, as well as any filtration you have?

I have also tried feeding more but just seems to be making my phosphates go up but has no effect on nitrate. When I think about it I do have a heck of a lot of surface area and resonably dense sand bed.

I am not sure what to do about this as I am not convinced dosing lots of nitrate suppliments is a sustainable long term soultion. Nor am I sure if its even a problem worth worrying about since corals are not really after nitrates. I plan to add a two or three more fish but its only a reefer 350 and is fairly well stocked as it is.

You literally have 11 full pages of gold on this topic..

 

[SauceyReef]

I fed the tiniest bit of reef roids and it shot my phosphate up from .6ppm to 1.3ppm. I am going to run a small amount of ROWA GFO for the next few months to help slowly get the levels down.

Is there a calculator for how much ROWA to use for a 13 gallon? The back of package doesn’t seem to give clear dosing instructions.

 

[Dburr1014]

I fed the tiniest bit of reef roids and it shot my phosphate up from .6ppm to 1.3ppm. I am going to run a small amount of ROWA GFO for the next few months to help slowly get the levels down.

Is there a calculator for how much ROWA to use for a 13 gallon? The back of package doesn’t seem to give clear dosing instructions.

A tiny bit won't keep it up for any length of time. It will get used up before the rock/substrate can soak it up. Even still, 1.3 is not bad at all.

 

[SauceyReef]

A tiny bit won't keep it up for any length of time. It will get used up before the rock/substrate can soak it up. Even still, 1.3 is not bad at all.

For sure, but I would rather have a small amount of ROWA exporting out phosphate than it just collecting which seems to be the case. I want more phosphate export so I can feed the corals more, and not just stick to a tiny spritz of mysis a day which has been keeping me at around .5ppm (my desired area).

When I say small amount, probably 1/4th the reccomended dose for my tank size which is what I am trying to figure out.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sounds reasonable to me, if that value is correct, though I worry it may be test error based on the rapid jump up.

 

[SauceyReef]

Bringing this back to life! @Randy Holmes-Farley will long term dosing and reliance on calcium nitrate eventually unbalance the calcium/alk ratio in my tank? Lately my alk has been dropping and calcium raising even though I just do water changes. Only thing I think that would cause this is long term dosing of the calcium nitrate. To compensate I’ve been lowering my refugium lighting period in hopes to dose less calcium nitrate and get it balanced again.

 

[Dan_P]

Bringing this back to life! @Randy Holmes-Farley will long term dosing and reliance on calcium nitrate eventually unbalance the calcium/alk ratio in my tank? Lately my alk has been dropping and calcium raising even though I just do water changes. Only thing I think that would cause this is long term dosing of the calcium nitrate. To compensate I’ve been lowering my refugium lighting period in hopes to dose less calcium nitrate and get it balanced again.

Just a thought. If you need to dose nitrate, shouldn’t the refugium be taken off line?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bringing this back to life! @Randy Holmes-Farley will long term dosing and reliance on calcium nitrate eventually unbalance the calcium/alk ratio in my tank? Lately my alk has been dropping and calcium raising even though I just do water changes. Only thing I think that would cause this is long term dosing of the calcium nitrate. To compensate I’ve been lowering my refugium lighting period in hopes to dose less calcium nitrate and get it balanced again.

Calcium nitrate is a balanced alk and calcium additive system that won’t lead to any imbalances.

 

[SauceyReef]

Just a thought. If you need to dose nitrate, shouldn’t the refugium be taken off line?

Yes! I would agree with that. I have just been slowly decreasing it an hour every week or two so a big change does not happen.

Calcium nitrate is a balanced alk and calcium additive system that won’t lead to any imbalances.

Huh.. Super strange. Any idea what would be causing creeping up calcium, and dropping Alk? I finally got my nutrients pretty stable (10ppm No3 , .25 Po4), and now my Alk/CA is doing the same "inverse relationship" thing.

I am confused because I have not been dosing anything for a while now except doing just water changes. The only thing I add in the tank is Mysis shrimp and live phyto which I've been doing for over a year. I even double checked the new salt batch to make sure it is fine which it was.

 

[DanyL]

Yes! I would agree with that. I have just been slowly decreasing it an hour every week or two so a big change does not happen.


Huh.. Super strange. Any idea what would be causing creeping up calcium, and dropping Alk? I finally got my nutrients pretty stable (10ppm No3 , .25 Po4), and now my Alk/CA is doing the same "inverse relationship" thing.

I am confused because I have not been dosing anything for a while now except doing just water changes. The only thing I add in the tank is Mysis shrimp and live phyto which I've been doing for over a year. I even double checked the new salt batch to make sure it is fine which it was.

I don’t think there’s anything here to do with your nutrient levels or nitrate dosing.

Sometimes the ratio between Alk and Ca can be interrupted, usually it’s by changes in PH, or a higher uptake of Mag.

Test your Mag and PH levels - if your Mag is low, I’d increase both Alk and Mag - this would resume coral consumption of Ca as well as the others and slowly bring it down.

If its PH fluctuating or a significant decrease, than I’d focus on that - there are many ways to both increasing and stabilizing it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am confused because I have not been dosing anything for a while now except doing just water changes. The only thing I add in the tank is Mysis shrimp and live phyto which I've been doing for over a year. I even double checked the new salt batch to make sure it is fine which it was.

How closely do the alk and calcium levels in the salt mix match the tank levels?

It can be counterintuitive, but a salt mix with 450 ppm calcium and 10 dKH alk is unbalanced to excess calcium, not excess alk, relative to the balance in 35 ppt normal seawater.

 

[SauceyReef]

Honestly I have not been checking PH or Mag. I thought if ALK/CA were in line that PH would naturally follow suit. I also assumed with 2x larger water changes a month it would sufficiently replace the Mag uptake by the corals.

I feel a bit overwhelmed with all the manual checking as it is with 3 tanks. I really hope more affordable all in one digital testers start becoming more available in the hobby the next decade.

@Randy Holmes-Farley I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals. DKH about 9-10 and Calcium around 450 as backed up by the params listed online. The tank has been rocking a really low Alk around 7DKH and high calcium at 500 even with constant water changes. I stopped dosing around 2-3 months ago because I had a tank crash, and learned my Hanna broke and was giving me false readings. Got a new one now which is on point, but still struggling getting the tank back to normal levels. I assumed this was from the calcium nitrate increasing Calcium levels, but clearly that was a wrong guess.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Honestly I have not been checking PH or Mag. I thought if ALK/CA were in line that PH would naturally follow suit. I also assumed with 2x larger water changes a month it would sufficiently replace the Mag uptake by the corals.

I feel a bit overwhelmed with all the manual checking as it is with 3 tanks. I really hope more affordable all in one digital testers start becoming more available in the hobby the next decade.

@Randy Holmes-Farley I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals. DKH about 9-10 and Calcium around 450 as backed up by the params listed online. The tank has been rocking a really low Alk around 7DKH and high calcium at 500 even with constant water changes. I stopped dosing around 2-3 months ago because I had a tank crash, and learned my Hanna broke and was giving me false readings. Got a new one now which is on point, but still struggling getting the tank back to normal levels. I assumed this was from the calcium nitrate increasing Calcium levels, but clearly that was a wrong guess.

I really do not know what it is that is raising calcium, but if something it depleted alk only (say, a sulfur denitrator) then a balanced calcium and alk method to maintain alk will end up with increasing calcium.

In any case, 500 ppm calcium is not a concern.

 

[Troylee]

I fed the tiniest bit of reef roids and it shot my phosphate up from .6ppm to 1.3ppm. I am going to run a small amount of ROWA GFO for the next few months to help slowly get the levels down.

Is there a calculator for how much ROWA to use for a 13 gallon? The back of package doesn’t seem to give clear dosing instructions.

It’s something to do with the corals and uptaking the po4 and no3…. I had the same issue with reef roids only and used them to keep my po4 from bottoming out then my po4 shot up and stayed up.. All the sudden my corals looked happier… I got on this bacteria feeding concoction and wow! I mix up a bacteria cocktail with all sorts of aminos and bacteria with 2tsp of reef roids now and feed it 3 times a week and my numbers are perfect! That’s 6 tsp a week of roids and my po4 stays solid as the corals are uptaking it within 24 hours now… I tested 2 hours after dosing and it’s off the charts! 24 hours later these are my numbers… corals never looked better either.. it’s crazy when the tank and corals find a equilibrium and can process that much n03 and p04 in a single day. Something in that bacteria makes it really easy for the corals to uptake it and process it cause reef roids on there own they don’t respond like this.

 

[SauceyReef]

It’s something to do with the corals and uptaking the po4 and no3…. I had the same issue with reef roids only and used them to keep my po4 from bottoming out then my po4 shot up and stayed up.. All the sudden my corals looked happier… I got on this bacteria feeding concoction and wow! I mix up a bacteria cocktail with all sorts of aminos and bacteria with 2tsp of reef roids now and feed it 3 times a week and my numbers are perfect! That’s 6 tsp a week of roids and my po4 stays solid as the corals are uptaking it within 24 hours now… I tested 2 hours after dosing and it’s off the charts! 24 hours later these are my numbers… corals never looked better either.. it’s crazy when the tank and corals find a equilibrium and can process that much n03 and p04 in a single day. Something in that bacteria makes it really easy for the corals to uptake it and process it cause reef roids on there own they don’t respond like this.

What size tank do you have? I am rocking a 13.5 gallon, and can not really dose any amount of reef-roids without a horrible phosphate spike. I have just been using live phyto now this past year and it has been great. I can dose a ton and over time it keeps my nutrient levels super stable, and even slowly decreases phosphate. That works out because mysis adds phosphate so I can easily balance it each month. This entire thread until this page was about finding something to help keep my phosphate stable, and slowly lower. GFO did that but really bothered some of the corals for some reason (even with a very slow addition and PO4 drop), but the live phyto has no negative effects.

@Randy Holmes-Farley because my dosing errors 2 months ago the tank got to 530 CA, and 6 DKH. I found out the Hanna was wrong when the tank started crashing, and I went to others to double test everything. I just did not think it would take this long to get the DKH back up.. But I learned from the NO4/PO3 battle it literally took a year to see PO4 start going down from manual cleanings and live phyto. I remember you mentioned the nutrients specifically PO4 can leach into the rockwork/tank.

 

[Troylee]

What size tank do you have? I am rocking a 13.5 gallon, and can not really dose any amount of reef-roids without a horrible phosphate spike. I have just been using live phyto now this past year and it has been great. I can dose a ton and over time it keeps my nutrient levels super stable, and even slowly decreases phosphate. That works out because mysis adds phosphate so I can easily balance it each month. This entire thread until this page was about finding something to help keep my phosphate stable, and slowly lower. GFO did that but really bothered some of the corals for some reason (even with a very slow addition and PO4 drop), but the live phyto has no negative effects.

@Randy Holmes-Farley because my dosing errors 2 months ago the tank got to 530 CA, and 6 DKH. I found out the Hanna was wrong when the tank started crashing, and I went to others to double test everything. I just did not think it would take this long to get the DKH back up.. But I learned from the NO4/PO3 battle it literally took a year to see PO4 start going down from manual cleanings and live phyto. I remember you mentioned the nutrients specifically PO4 can leach into the rockwork/tank.

My tanks around 350 gallons wet. So yeah I’m gonna use a lot more product lol… I wish I was better at science and chemistry but I’m not! So I look for trends and take bits and pieces and make my own haha! It all started out with sunny x bacteria driven system then I saw a couple of the top sps keeps “in my opinion” diddling into gut loaded bacteria and feeding corals and wow! Once your corals get on the routine the rest is history! The tank processes and the corals keep the numbers line! At least that’s what I’m observing.