Nitrate and Phosphorus Control via Phytoplankton Additions?

taricha

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Let me throw out an idea. Some dinoflagellates split at a particular time of day, you can see the ostreopsis cells dividing most around 9pm almost none at other times during day. If there is a cycle with a time for mass cell division, then there ought to also be a nutrient uptake cycle (unlikely to be pulling in nutrients super fast while trying to cut yourself in half and shed armor.)
Do common phyto (nanno, tet, t-iso) have a division time and a max nutrient acquisition time? Can we sync our skimmer to it to allow phyto to stay in water during peak nutrient uptake hours, and skim out during cell division time?
 

salty joe

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I've heard different things about the light cycle. The lady at Fla. Farms told me they keep the lights on 24/7 and it makes for faster growth. I've been doing that for a few months and it seems like things have slowed down a bit but I can't say for sure because I don't have one of those sticks to check cell density. Maybe I better get a couple timers too for a dark cycle...
I almost lost the Tetra to high temps, I think. I was using a 14W LED bulb (the bulb touches the bottles) and it heated the cultures to 84F.

Just today, I lined a bucket with polished aluminum sheet and believe it or not, the lumens went down a little bit. Weird.

I'm pouring 1 liter into the DT every evening, trying to get more pods so I can get some delicate fish. I would like to feed the tank a liter every morning too. If I could double the output without having another air pump, more buckets, more stuff, that would be so cool.
 
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I've heard different things about the light cycle. The lady at Fla. Farms told me they keep the lights on 24/7 and it makes for faster growth. I've been doing that for a few months and it seems like things have slowed down a bit but I can't say for sure because I don't have one of those sticks to check cell density. Maybe I better get a couple timers too for a dark cycle...
I almost lost the Tetra to high temps, I think. I was using a 14W LED bulb (the bulb touches the bottles) and it heated the cultures to 84F.

Just today, I lined a bucket with polished aluminum sheet and believe it or not, the lumens went down a little bit. Weird.

I'm pouring 1 liter into the DT every evening, trying to get more pods so I can get some delicate fish. I would like to feed the tank a liter every morning too. If I could double the output without having another air pump, more buckets, more stuff, that would be so cool.

I’m working off old protocols for light dark cycle and that method may be superseded. I haven’t messed with it since it was working very well for my system. I might portion out a little and do a 24 hour light cycle and see if there’s a difference in yield. Thanks for pointing that out

I don’t like Saatchi disks. Uses too much culture each check, and it can be pretty subjective. I prefer to count cells using a hemocytometer on the scope- but I’m a microbiologist, so I’m super comfortable doing that. My set up makes it super easy to take small samples for testing also.

How are you measuring lumens?

I’m culturing pods in their own separate 4 gallon tanks. Makes it much easier to appreciate the population number over time. I recently stopped my culture due to a vacation, but I bought a jar of tiger pods in March, and have been pulling 3-4K per month out of the big culture. I dump those into the sump and can see them all over the glass at night. With a bit of optimization I’m expecting to harvest about 6k/month out of the Tigriops and about 4K from the apocalypse pods . Once I start up the new cultures, I’m going to grow them for 4 months then evaluate my population in DT, then buy my pod eaters- got my eyes on a couple of green mandarins, a couple ruby reds and a scooter blenny. I have a 180g so I think that’s about my limit
 

salty joe

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I used my low budget digital lux meter, I held it in the same place against the neck of the bottles and tilted it back and forth. I didn't write the numbers down but it was probably 10% lower. FWIW, it looked darker too.
I googled hemocytometer, that's neat device. I couldn't find Saatchi disks but the stick thing wouldn't use any culture. It's just a stick with a white dot fastened at a right angle to the bottom. The stick has a scale on it. The stick is lowered into the culture until the dot disappears, then you check the scale on the stick to get an estimate of cell density.

I plan on getting some of those same fish as well as pipefish. I look through algae that I pull out and find tiny pods flitting about, little bitty worms and an occasional amphipod but I'm not seeing much pod activity at night so I'm thinking more phyto might help.
 

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I used my low budget digital lux meter, I held it in the same place against the neck of the bottles and tilted it back and forth. I didn't write the numbers down but it was probably 10% lower. FWIW, it looked darker too.
I googled hemocytometer, that's neat device. I couldn't find Saatchi disks but the stick thing wouldn't use any culture. It's just a stick with a white dot fastened at a right angle to the bottom. The stick has a scale on it. The stick is lowered into the culture until the dot disappears, then you check the scale on the stick to get an estimate of cell density.

I plan on getting some of those same fish as well as pipefish. I look through algae that I pull out and find tiny pods flitting about, little bitty worms and an occasional amphipod but I'm not seeing much pod activity at night so I'm thinking more phyto might help.
That stick you described is a modified saatchi disk... and if they recommend you dip it into your full culture- that’s a huge contamination risk ready to happen. I would never dip anything into my culture- always portion off a sample and test then immediately use that to dose, or discard.

That’s why I said those things take too much sample- you have to have a sample at least 10” deep or so- depending on your testing container, that’s a lot of culture. Of course, if you dip it into your main culture that explains the ‘no loss’ testing but it’s a risk.

Check your substrate-water interface right after lights out. Probably 50% of my pods are running across the sand grains right against the glass and you can see them go deep into the sand.
 

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Good point about contamination. I'm going to get a secchi stick and check the culture after its poured into the toy bucket I use to dump the phtyto into the DT. Really good link too, thanks!
 

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You Know what- 16w will probably work for 2 liter bottles in a 5 gal bucket. The reflective properties of the white plastic will bounce it around and increase efficiency. If you wanted to line the inside with foil or Mylar reflective sheet- even more better

Also, possibly more critical is light cycle. 18 on 6 off is optimal for photosynthesis. The cells need the dark period to perform the final steps of metabolism and are critical. Without it, they can’t make the final carbohydrate units to store, and essentially starve to death. Slow decline, yellowing then a sudden crash.
You all need to keep science-ing, I’m gobbling this stuff up :)
 

erk

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I've been adding phyto for about a month now with good results. Polyp extension on my soft corals, specifically my purple candelbra gorgs is incredible. The purple candelbras are always fuzzy now. All other corals are doing very well. PO4 was steadily increasing, but NO3 was holding steady. So I've started dosing 0.1mL/day of vodka. Been going for about a week. i I think it is working because the cyano in the low flow areas is thinning out. Will know for sure on Sunday.

Seeing even more life after lights out. Last night I saw a large grouping of pale colored amphipods on the glass. They were about 1/8 inch long. I've seen a dark grey amphipod species crawling on the rocks and coral too. Smaller than the pale pods. These are the two more plentiful species. There are others though that scurry into hiding when I shine a light. Water has a ton of free floating particles and plankton from what I can see. Banggai cardinals go crazy once lights are out.

Question on phyto cultures. How often do you have to clean out the culture containers? I'm finding that I get an accumulation of dead algae on the bottom. I think this is just old cells dying and falling out. Do I need to dose more or is this normal? Culture isn't dying though. Both are still very strong.
 

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I've been adding phyto for about a month now with good results. Polyp extension on my soft corals, specifically my purple candelbra gorgs is incredible. The purple candelbras are always fuzzy now. All other corals are doing very well. PO4 was steadily increasing, but NO3 was holding steady. So I've started dosing 0.1mL/day of vodka. Been going for about a week. i I think it is working because the cyano in the low flow areas is thinning out. Will know for sure on Sunday.

Seeing even more life after lights out. Last night I saw a large grouping of pale colored amphipods on the glass. They were about 1/8 inch long. I've seen a dark grey amphipod species crawling on the rocks and coral too. Smaller than the pale pods. These are the two more plentiful species. There are others though that scurry into hiding when I shine a light. Water has a ton of free floating particles and plankton from what I can see. Banggai cardinals go crazy once lights are out.

Question on phyto cultures. How often do you have to clean out the culture containers? I'm finding that I get an accumulation of dead algae on the bottom. I think this is just old cells dying and falling out. Do I need to dose more or is this normal? Culture isn't dying though. Both are still very strong.
Sounds awesome, congrats.

More specific answer to your build up issue depends on your set up conditions, but here are some general thoughts-


If you're getting so many dead cells that they are building up on the bottom, you are waiting too long before splitting. The cultures are coming out of exponential phase and are hitting steady state. If you wait another split cycle without replenishing nutrients, the culture is st risk from crashing.

You can either split a couple days earlier, do a more dilute split (eg if you are doing 1:4, maybe try 1:6) but keep the timing the same, or you can dose more Guillards F2 a couple days before you normally split and push the harvest day out a few more days.

My cultures were in a 1:4 split, harvested every 8 days, running for 2 months with no appreciable build up. I did use stupid ribbed bottles for my trial run, and I’d get attachment abc build up in the ribs, so I just tossed the bottle after 4 weeks after decanting. My newer set up is based around 1 gal cheese puff barrels so that will eliminate that factor.

Once V2 is running, I’ll be sterilizing each individual container on a 4 week rotation. My FIL loves those disgusting puffs so I have s small stockpile at this point.

I have experience doing semi continuous closed cultures of bacterial and algae cultures, through work. It really can get pretty scientific even at this level, but consistent conditions and split times and volumes can get you really great cultures. You just need to trial and error fir a bit with your particular strain.
 

erk

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Sounds awesome, congrats.

More specific answer to your build up issue depends on your set up conditions, but here are some general thoughts-


If you're getting so many dead cells that they are building up on the bottom, you are waiting too long before splitting. The cultures are coming out of exponential phase and are hitting steady state. If you wait another split cycle without replenishing nutrients, the culture is st risk from crashing.

You can either split a couple days earlier, do a more dilute split (eg if you are doing 1:4, maybe try 1:6) but keep the timing the same, or you can dose more Guillards F2 a couple days before you normally split and push the harvest day out a few more days.

My cultures were in a 1:4 split, harvested every 8 days, running for 2 months with no appreciable build up. I did use stupid ribbed bottles for my trial run, and I’d get attachment abc build up in the ribs, so I just tossed the bottle after 4 weeks after decanting. My newer set up is based around 1 gal cheese puff barrels so that will eliminate that factor.

Once V2 is running, I’ll be sterilizing each individual container on a 4 week rotation. My FIL loves those disgusting puffs so I have s small stockpile at this point.

I have experience doing semi continuous closed cultures of bacterial and algae cultures, through work. It really can get pretty scientific even at this level, but consistent conditions and split times and volumes can get you really great cultures. You just need to trial and error fir a bit with your particular strain.

I dose directly from my cultures, 100mL per day. I top off the cultures with tank water which introduces more nutrients. At ~100mL per day, that equates to using ~700mL per week out of a 1900mL culture. I have two cultures running at the same time. I alternate between each every week. I'm going to increase to 200mL per day. That would equate to a 1:4 split where I dose 3/4 of that into the tank each week. I will still alternate to give the cultures time to recuperate. If this is too much, then I'll dial it back to 150mL, but from what I can tell, the off cycle culture seems to have nearly hit its limit after only 4-5 days. Hopefully it doesn't crash.
 

salty joe

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I top off the cultures with tank water which introduces more nutrients.

I'd think adding tank water to the culture would introduce contaminants, but IDK.

Hey nielp, I got a secchi stick from that link-thanks. Also, I was grossly overdosing sodium thiosulfate. I aint no chemist but wonder if that depleted the fertilizer. I really like the secchi stick. I'm testing every batch and writing down the result like the nerd I try so hard to be. This hobby is so much fun!
 

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It’s probable that some contaminant organism is in your cultures from the DT- this’ll give you the build up that you we

However- that’s not totally bad. As long as your cultures are still productive, it’s all good
 
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erk

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It’s probable that some contaminant organism is in your cultures from the DT- this’ll give you the build up that you we

However- that’s not totally bad. As long as your cultures are still productive, it’s all good

I think your original post about splitting the culture is more accurate. I've noticed the cultures get very dark, not sure cell count as I haven't been keeping up on it, but it is pretty high. I think I need to dose more phyto to keep the population from stalling. I was hoping by adding tank water with its 25ppm NO3 and 0.3ppm PO4 would help to replenish nutrients and increase growth. But when I don't top off with tank water during an off week, I guess that means the nutrients get consumed too quickly.
 

Halal Hotdog

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I think your original post about splitting the culture is more accurate. I've noticed the cultures get very dark, not sure cell count as I haven't been keeping up on it, but it is pretty high. I think I need to dose more phyto to keep the population from stalling. I was hoping by adding tank water with its 25ppm NO3 and 0.3ppm PO4 would help to replenish nutrients and increase growth. But when I don't top off with tank water during an off week, I guess that means the nutrients get consumed too quickly.

Are there enough nutrients in tank water alone to maintain a culture? Did you stop using a fertilizer?
 

erk

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Are there enough nutrients in tank water alone to maintain a culture? Did you stop using a fertilizer?

I still use f/2, I dose it per the instructions once a week. But I only top off the culture that I'm dosing from. The other culture sits idle for an entire week. So I think this is the issue. It sits idle and since I'm only dosing ~700mL per week, this is like a 1:1.6 split. Nowhere near the 1:4 or 1:6 that is cited in this thread. I'm not diluting the mixture enough to keep the culture from stalling. It is exasperated by the fact that I cumulatively dose 700mL. So the beginning of the week when the culture is starting to stall, instead of splitting it 1:1.6, I just take 5% of it. Granted I do dose f/2 on Sunday and top off with tank water, so this helps to keep the culture from stalling.
 

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